Fiction_L Archives Comics Dates: 1/8/04,11:02 AM  through  1/15/04,11:05 AM  (28 postings) Search for: Select one or more indexes to search: 2011-current     2009-2010     2004-2008    1995-2003    (Matches from each index will be displayed separately in the results page.) Return to January 2004 thread menu   |    Fiction_L Archives Menu

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FROM: Palmer Nan <[removed]@yahoo.com>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 11:02 AM

FictionL-ers,

This whole thread on kids & reading reminds me of when
my then 10-year old son would call the library to
check in with me after school, sometimes saying "Is
this the poooblic library?" just like Calvin. I would
struggle to not crack up at the reference desk!

This boy is now 21, doesn't read a lot these days, but
when we was younger, I bring him home piles of
non-fiction on whatever he was into: go-carts,
building boats, sports cars. I planted the seed, and
it will sprout again some day. He usually complained
when I brought him some good fiction that he couldn't
get anything done, because the book was too
engrossing!

So, I truly agree that there are different reading
personalities, though I really don't "get" people who
say they don't read. It's like not breathing!!

Nan

=====
Nan Palmer, YA Librarian
Maud Preston Palenske Memorial Library
St Joseph Michigan 49085
(269) 983-7167
www.stjoseph.lib.mis.us

This email is a natural product made from recycled electrons. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

FROM: "Jennifer Compton" <[removed]@oc.edu>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 11:19 AM

OK. I'm going to jump in on the comic thing. I grew up devouring
Archie comics. It was the one thing I could talk my mom into buying at
the grocery store checkout (she objected to all the magazines). When I
moved away to college, I decided to count them up and see how many I
collected since age 7. If I remember correctly, it was over 300.

My mom realized I really liked to read, with the whole comic thing, so
around 9 or 10 she enrolled me in the library summer reading program.
And while Archie comics didn't count, graphic novels like The Adventures
of Tin-Tin and Garfield did. Then there were all the cool books that
were on display with the appealing covers. I think I must have met my
goal every year (as I earned many movie tickets and certificates of
achievement).

As I got into middle school/high school I started to discover the
classics-Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, Beowulf, Dante.

In college, my roommate and I would go to Barnes and Noble and buy 2 $5
books, then trade.

And here I am now, age 25 with my MLIS. All because of those Archie
comics. Just thought I would throw my two cents in on how comics really
can make a difference. I'm just glad I didn't have any of those
teachers that have been discussed previously on this threads!!

J.J. Compton
Technical Services Librarian/Archivist
Tom & Ada Beam Library
Oklahoma Christian University
(405) 425-5314
[removed]@oc.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Palmer Nan [[removed]@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:55 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: calvin & hobbs

FictionL-ers,

This whole thread on kids & reading reminds me of when
my then 10-year old son would call the library to
check in with me after school, sometimes saying "Is
this the poooblic library?" just like Calvin. I would
struggle to not crack up at the reference desk!

This boy is now 21, doesn't read a lot these days, but
when we was younger, I bring him home piles of
non-fiction on whatever he was into: go-carts,
building boats, sports cars. I planted the seed, and
it will sprout again some day. He usually complained
when I brought him some good fiction that he couldn't
get anything done, because the book was too
engrossing!

So, I truly agree that there are different reading
personalities, though I really don't "get" people who
say they don't read. It's like not breathing!!

Nan

=====
Nan Palmer, YA Librarian
Maud Preston Palenske Memorial Library
St Joseph Michigan 49085
(269) 983-7167
www.stjoseph.lib.mis.us

This email is a natural product made from recycled electrons. The
slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual
character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or
defects.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

FROM: "Victoria Kemp" <[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 11:43 AM

I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction began.
The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
liked the Silver Surfer.
Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we are
having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that I
believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older librarians
who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What to
do, what to do?
If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available for
kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
Just my two cents' worth.
Sincerely,
Viccy Kemp
The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 12:06 PM

The soft spot on my head is for Classics Comic books, which were about 20
cents apiece when I was coming up. I discovered that I could read those and
do book reports from them from my dimmer English teachers. Then I could
decide if I really wanted to read the whole dang book. This did not work
with the brighter English teachers, but except for Silas Marner and Ethan
Frome they rarely inflicted real stinkers on me.

Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East University
Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)

"Non, merci."
--Cyrano de Bergerac

-----Original Message-----
From: Victoria Kemp [[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:41 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Comics

I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction began.
The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
liked the Silver Surfer.
Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we are
having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that I
believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older librarians
who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What to
do, what to do?
If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available for
kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
Just my two cents' worth.
Sincerely,
Viccy Kemp
The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!

FROM: "Stephany Harvey" <[removed]@sbtek.net>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 12:17 PM

I know my son's great vocabulary came from Calvin and Hobbs--and because of
this, we need a dictionary in every room, even right beside the beds,
because you never know when you might need to look up a word! He devoured
the graphic Shakespeare "treatments", and is even now working his way
through the Complete Far Side (all 20 pounds of it), which was his favorite
Christmas gift.

And we're reading Thurber at bedtime, thanks to all your suggestions--it's a
real bed-shaker. I had forgotten. Last night, his tale of his cook had us
crying and unable to speak, due to laughter. My face still hurts.

Stephany in Iowa (working my way through the April Woo series)

FROM: "Sue Bowser" <[removed]@lancaster.lib.pa.us>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 12:50 PM

Wow! Where did you get that tee shirt? That sums up my theory of collection development in one sentence. As for Calvin and Hobbes, Calvin is the kid I would have liked to have been, but I never had the nerve.

Sue Bowser
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Victoria Kemp" <[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org>
Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:41:14 -0600

I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction began.
The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
liked the Silver Surfer.
Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we are
having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that I
believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older librarians
who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What to
do, what to do?
If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available for
kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
Just my two cents' worth.
Sincerely,
Viccy Kemp
The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

FROM: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 1:19 PM

Did somebody say comics?

I've been reading comics since shortly after I learned *how* to read. I've always loved the medium. However, for a very long time, teachers and (let's face it) librarians were at best barely tolerant, and usually dismissive, of the medium. And yet, there is plenty of research that demonstrates that children who read and enjoy comics become better readers overall, enjoy reading more, *and* read more often. Nor do they only read more comics; rather, they go on to read more plays, poetry, novels, and short stories in general. On top of that, this research has been demonstrated to be consistent across racial and socioeconomic lines. (And despite this, people *still* disdain the medium.)

This research was pivotal in my grant application this year. I received nearly $3000.00 for a Back to Books grant that has enabled me to start a monthly *graphic novels* discussion group for teens in my area, entitled "Heroes [removed]@ Your Library."

Fortunately, Americans have recently begun to understand that comics are indeed a valid art form, a fact that much of the rest of the world (particularly Asia, Europe, and South America) has acknowledged for a very long time. Their presence of graphic novels in mainstream bookstores has dramatically increased public awareness of the medium.

(Warning-more history follows ... I'm on a roll.)

Partly, this American assumption of comics being solely "for kids" was due to a book entitled Seduction of the Innocent, written by Dr. Wertham and published in 1954. Dr. Wertham ran into comic books in the course of his work with juvenile offenders. He noted that many of the delinquents read them avidly, and concluded that they were important environmental factors leading the kids to delinquency, homosexuality, crime and violence. (Of course, as it turned out, the delinquents read comics because their reading skills were poor, to say the least, and comics were more accessible.) In the fallout from the McCarthy era, comics publishers self-censored their material to avoid being targeted by the government. For many years afterward, while comics in other countries explored the full possibilities of the medium for a range of readers, American comics were tied to the children's market.

Unfortunately, too many people think that comics should *stay* a children's medium. Worse, this thinking is *so* pervasive that it has recently enabled litigation that violates the 1st amendment!

This article (pasted below) is from the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund website. The URL is: http://www.cbldf.org/pr/archives/000146.shtml

August 05, 2003
Supreme Court Denies Castillo Appeal
The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund has learned that the U.S. Supreme Court denied Jesus Castillo's petition for writ of certiorari, bringing his three-year quest for justice to a close. Castillo is presently serving a period of unsupervised probation.
The CBLDF has been providing counsel for Castillo since his arrest in 2000 when he was charged with two counts of obscenity for selling adult comic books to adults [emphasis mine]. The Fund's lawyers persuaded the court to try the two counts separately and waged a fierce courtroom battle that included expert testimony from Scott McCloud and Professor Susan Napier. The State prosecutor did not offer contradictory testimony, but secured a guilty verdict with a closing argument stating, "I don't care what type of evidence or what type of testimony is out there, use your rationality, use your common sense. Comic books, traditionally what we think of, are for kids. This is in a store directly across from an elementary school and it is put in a medium, in a forum, to directly appeal to kids. That is why we are here, ladies and gentlemen. ... We're here to get this off the shelf." Castillo was found guilty and sentenced to 180 days in jail, a year probation, and a $4,000 fine.
Immediately following the first trial, the State dropped the second obscenity count while the Fund prepared its appeal. In 2002 the Appeals court rendered a 2-1 split decision upholding the conviction. Justice Tom James, writing in dissent, would have reversed the conviction on the ground that the State did not provide sufficient evidence that Castillo had knowledge of the content and character of the offending comic book. On the strength of James' dissent, the Fund filed a Petition for Discretionary Review to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, which was denied. At the end of the road for Texas Justice, the Fund took the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Fund Legal Counsel Burton Joseph explains, "It is rare that the Supreme Court accepts individual criminal cases for consideration. In the Castillo case, in spite of the odds, CBLDF appealed to the Supreme Court on the chance that they would reverse what appeared to be an unjust and unconstitutional decision in the Texas courts. The principle was important, but we knew the odds were long."
"Unfortunately, fighting the right battles is not a guarantee of winning," Fund Director Charles Brownstein says. "The Fund put up a strong fight for Castillo against the rising tide of repression. We were successful in knocking out the second charge against Jesus and in getting a sentence where no actual jail time was served, but unfortunately the higher courts would not correct the blinding injustice at the heart of this case."
Fund board member Peter David says, "When dealing with the denseness of the 'Protect the children!' censorship hysteria in Texas, coupled with the unlikelihood that the Supreme Court would hear the case, this was almost a hopeless cause from the get-go. However, oftentimes it's the hopeless causes that are the ones worth fighting. This unfortunate and spectacularly unjust outcome doesn't change that."
Burton Joseph adds, "One thing is clear, with every defeat of the First Amendment, the censors gain courage to pursue their unconstitutional ends. The Castillo case is among the most appalling cases of injustice ever to come to the attention of CBLDF. Conservative communities are quick to condemn comic book artists and publishers without an understanding that they enjoy the full panoply of First Amendment rights."
"This case bodes badly for the First Amendment," Brownstein comments. "By choosing to deny Jesus' plea for justice, the Supreme Court has allowed a precedent to stand that allows a man to be convicted of obscenity charges without adequate proof being presented that the work he is convicted for selling is constitutionally obscene. All because the medium the alleged obscenity was placed in 'is for kids.'"
Fund board member Neil Gaiman says, "I think the hardest thing to believe is that Jesus was found guilty of selling an adult comic, from the adult section of the store, to an adult police officer, and convicted because the DA convinced the jury that all comics are really intended for children. I can't imagine a world in which the same argument would have worked for books or for films -- and I'm afraid that highlights why comics retailers (and artists and writers and publishers) still need a Defense Fund, and still need to be defended."
"Perhaps the worst thing about the decision is the chilling effect it will have on everyone else working with comics and graphic novels," says attorney and Fund board member Louise Nemschoff, adding, "As we approach another election year, we can expect to see an increase in such attacks on free expression. Now, more than ever, we need the CBLDF to both educate the public and defend those working in the industry from further incursion on First Amendment rights. It deserves our whole-hearted support."

*****

Scary, isn't it?

What do all of you think?

Steven A. Roman
DeKalb Public Library
309 Oak Street
DeKalb, IL 60115
815-756-9568

-----Original Message-----
From: Victoria Kemp [[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:41 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Comics

I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction began.
The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
liked the Silver Surfer.
Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we are
having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that I
believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older librarians
who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What to
do, what to do?
If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available for
kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
Just my two cents' worth.
Sincerely,
Viccy Kemp
The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!

FROM: "Sue Bowser" <[removed]@lancaster.lib.pa.us>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 2:17 PM

That was a chilling court decision that could affect libraries. We need to be very vigilant in deciding what area to place certain graphic novels. Too many libraries have only juvenile or young adult collections and there definitely are many GNs that don't belong there. Of course I advocate also having an adult GN collection. That way I get in on the fun of selecting them.

Your comment about juvenile offenders in the 50's reading comics because of their poor reading skills makes me think of a present day correlation in our library. Who knew that Lancaster County (of Witness fame) had a significantly larger Hispanic than Amish population, but we do. Graphic novels are perhaps the most popular non-media portion of our collection with this group, especially the young males. I often think it would be less politically correct but more fiscally effective to divert 10-20% of the Spanish language book budget to GNs or, better yet, buy the Spanish language equivalent.

Sue Bowser

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:08:36 -0600

Did somebody say comics?

I've been reading comics since shortly after I learned *how* to read. I've always loved the medium. However, for a very long time, teachers and (let's face it) librarians were at best barely tolerant, and usually dismissive, of the medium. And yet, there is plenty of research that demonstrates that children who read and enjoy comics become better readers overall, enjoy reading more, *and* read more often. Nor do they only read more comics; rather, they go on to read more plays, poetry, novels, and short stories in general. On top of that, this research has been demonstrated to be consistent across racial and socioeconomic lines. (And despite this, people *still* disdain the medium.)

This research was pivotal in my grant application this year. I received nearly $3000.00 for a Back to Books grant that has enabled me to start a monthly *graphic novels* discussion group for teens in my area, entitled "Heroes [removed]@ Your Library."

Fortunately, Americans have recently begun to understand that comics are indeed a valid art form, a fact that much of the rest of the world (particularly Asia, Europe, and South America) has acknowledged for a very long time. Their presence of graphic novels in mainstream bookstores has dramatically increased public awareness of the medium.

(Warning-more history follows ... I'm on a roll.)

Partly, this American assumption of comics being solely "for kids" was due to a book entitled Seduction of the Innocent, written by Dr. Wertham and published in 1954. Dr. Wertham ran into comic books in the course of his work with juvenile offenders. He noted that many of the delinquents read them avidly, and concluded that they were important environmental factors leading the kids to delinquency, homosexuality, crime and violence. (Of course, as it turned out, the delinquents read comics because their reading skills were poor, to say the least, and comics were more accessible.) In the fallout from the McCarthy era, comics publishers self-censored their material to avoid being targeted by the government. For many years afterward, while comics in other countries explored the full possibilities of the medium for a range of readers, American comics were tied to the children's market.

Unfortunately, too many people think that comics should *stay* a children's medium. Worse, this thinking is *so* pervasive that it has recently enabled litigation that violates the 1st amendment!

This article (pasted below) is from the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund website. The URL is: http://www.cbldf.org/pr/archives/000146.shtml

August 05, 2003
Supreme Court Denies Castillo Appeal
The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund has learned that the U.S. Supreme Court denied Jesus Castillo's petition for writ of certiorari, bringing his three-year quest for justice to a close. Castillo is presently serving a period of unsupervised probation.
The CBLDF has been providing counsel for Castillo since his arrest in 2000 when he was charged with two counts of obscenity for selling adult comic books to adults [emphasis mine]. The Fund's lawyers persuaded the court to try the two counts separately and waged a fierce courtroom battle that included expert testimony from Scott McCloud and Professor Susan Napier. The State prosecutor did not offer contradictory testimony, but secured a guilty verdict with a closing argument stating, "I don't care what type of evidence or what type of testimony is out there, use your rationality, use your common sense. Comic books, traditionally what we think of, are for kids. This is in a store directly across from an elementary school and it is put in a medium, in a forum, to directly appeal to kids. That is why we are here, ladies and gentlemen. ... We're here to get this off the shelf." Castillo was found guilty and sentenced to 180 days in jail, a year probation, and a $4,000 fine.
Immediately following the first trial, the State dropped the second obscenity count while the Fund prepared its appeal. In 2002 the Appeals court rendered a 2-1 split decision upholding the conviction. Justice Tom James, writing in dissent, would have reversed the conviction on the ground that the State did not provide sufficient evidence that Castillo had knowledge of the content and character of the offending comic book. On the strength of James' dissent, the Fund filed a Petition for Discretionary Review to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, which was denied. At the end of the road for Texas Justice, the Fund took the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Fund Legal Counsel Burton Joseph explains, "It is rare that the Supreme Court accepts individual criminal cases for consideration. In the Castillo case, in spite of the odds, CBLDF appealed to the Supreme Court on the chance that they would reverse what appeared to be an unjust and unconstitutional decision in the Texas courts. The principle was important, but we knew the odds were long."
"Unfortunately, fighting the right battles is not a guarantee of winning," Fund Director Charles Brownstein says. "The Fund put up a strong fight for Castillo against the rising tide of repression. We were successful in knocking out the second charge against Jesus and in getting a sentence where no actual jail time was served, but unfortunately the higher courts would not correct the blinding injustice at the heart of this case."
Fund board member Peter David says, "When dealing with the denseness of the 'Protect the children!' censorship hysteria in Texas, coupled with the unlikelihood that the Supreme Court would hear the case, this was almost a hopeless cause from the get-go. However, oftentimes it's the hopeless causes that are the ones worth fighting. This unfortunate and spectacularly unjust outcome doesn't change that."
Burton Joseph adds, "One thing is clear, with every defeat of the First Amendment, the censors gain courage to pursue their unconstitutional ends. The Castillo case is among the most appalling cases of injustice ever to come to the attention of CBLDF. Conservative communities are quick to condemn comic book artists and publishers without an understanding that they enjoy the full panoply of First Amendment rights."
"This case bodes badly for the First Amendment," Brownstein comments. "By choosing to deny Jesus' plea for justice, the Supreme Court has allowed a precedent to stand that allows a man to be convicted of obscenity charges without adequate proof being presented that the work he is convicted for selling is constitutionally obscene. All because the medium the alleged obscenity was placed in 'is for kids.'"
Fund board member Neil Gaiman says, "I think the hardest thing to believe is that Jesus was found guilty of selling an adult comic, from the adult section of the store, to an adult police officer, and convicted because the DA convinced the jury that all comics are really intended for children. I can't imagine a world in which the same argument would have worked for books or for films -- and I'm afraid that highlights why comics retailers (and artists and writers and publishers) still need a Defense Fund, and still need to be defended."
"Perhaps the worst thing about the decision is the chilling effect it will have on everyone else working with comics and graphic novels," says attorney and Fund board member Louise Nemschoff, adding, "As we approach another election year, we can expect to see an increase in such attacks on free expression. Now, more than ever, we need the CBLDF to both educate the public and defend those working in the industry from further incursion on First Amendment rights. It deserves our whole-hearted support."

*****

Scary, isn't it?

What do all of you think?

Steven A. Roman
DeKalb Public Library
309 Oak Street
DeKalb, IL 60115
815-756-9568

-----Original Message-----
From: Victoria Kemp [[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:41 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Comics

I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction began.
The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
liked the Silver Surfer.
Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we are
having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that I
believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older librarians
who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What to
do, what to do?
If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available for
kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
Just my two cents' worth.
Sincerely,
Viccy Kemp
The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

FROM: "Sue Bowser" <[removed]@lancaster.lib.pa.us>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 2:23 PM

Steve,

Congratulations on your grant. Would you be willing to send me more information about your book discussion group? Two of my friends who are youth services librarians would be interested. I have forwarded the few things on the subject that have been posted on the GN listserve I belong to.

Thanks so much,
Sue Bowser
Lancaster County Library
125 N. Duke St.
Lancaster, PA 17602
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:08:36 -0600

>Did somebody say comics?
>
>I've been reading comics since shortly after I learned *how* to read. I've always loved the medium. However, for a very long time, teachers and (let's face it) librarians were at best barely tolerant, and usually dismissive, of the medium. And yet, there is plenty of research that demonstrates that children who read and enjoy comics become better readers overall, enjoy reading more, *and* read more often. Nor do they only read more comics; rather, they go on to read more plays, poetry, novels, and short stories in general. On top of that, this research has been demonstrated to be consistent across racial and socioeconomic lines. (And despite this, people *still* disdain the medium.)
>
>This research was pivotal in my grant application this year. I received nearly $3000.00 for a Back to Books grant that has enabled me to start a monthly *graphic novels* discussion group for teens in my area, entitled "Heroes [removed]@ Your Library."
>
>Fortunately, Americans have recently begun to understand that comics are indeed a valid art form, a fact that much of the rest of the world (particularly Asia, Europe, and South America) has acknowledged for a very long time. Their presence of graphic novels in mainstream bookstores has dramatically increased public awareness of the medium.
>
>(Warning-more history follows ... I'm on a roll.)
>
>Partly, this American assumption of comics being solely "for kids" was due to a book entitled Seduction of the Innocent, written by Dr. Wertham and published in 1954. Dr. Wertham ran into comic books in the course of his work with juvenile offenders. He noted that many of the delinquents read them avidly, and concluded that they were important environmental factors leading the kids to delinquency, homosexuality, crime and violence. (Of course, as it turned out, the delinquents read comics because their reading skills were poor, to say the least, and comics were more accessible.) In the fallout from the McCarthy era, comics publishers self-censored their material to avoid being targeted by the government. For many years afterward, while comics in other countries explored the full possibilities of the medium for a range of readers, American comics were tied to the children's market.
>
>Unfortunately, too many people think that comics should *stay* a children's medium. Worse, this thinking is *so* pervasive that it has recently enabled litigation that violates the 1st amendment!
>
>This article (pasted below) is from the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund website. The URL is: http://www.cbldf.org/pr/archives/000146.shtml
>
>August 05, 2003
>Supreme Court Denies Castillo Appeal
>The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund has learned that the U.S. Supreme Court denied Jesus Castillo's petition for writ of certiorari, bringing his three-year quest for justice to a close. Castillo is presently serving a period of unsupervised probation.
>The CBLDF has been providing counsel for Castillo since his arrest in 2000 when he was charged with two counts of obscenity for selling adult comic books to adults [emphasis mine]. The Fund's lawyers persuaded the court to try the two counts separately and waged a fierce courtroom battle that included expert testimony from Scott McCloud and Professor Susan Napier. The State prosecutor did not offer contradictory testimony, but secured a guilty verdict with a closing argument stating, "I don't care what type of evidence or what type of testimony is out there, use your rationality, use your common sense. Comic books, traditionally what we think of, are for kids. This is in a store directly across from an elementary school and it is put in a medium, in a forum, to directly appeal to kids. That is why we are here, ladies and gentlemen. ... We're here to get this off the shelf." Castillo was found guilty and sentenced to 180 days in jail, a year probation, and a $4,000 fine.
>Immediately following the first trial, the State dropped the second obscenity count while the Fund prepared its appeal. In 2002 the Appeals court rendered a 2-1 split decision upholding the conviction. Justice Tom James, writing in dissent, would have reversed the conviction on the ground that the State did not provide sufficient evidence that Castillo had knowledge of the content and character of the offending comic book. On the strength of James' dissent, the Fund filed a Petition for Discretionary Review to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, which was denied. At the end of the road for Texas Justice, the Fund took the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
>Fund Legal Counsel Burton Joseph explains, "It is rare that the Supreme Court accepts individual criminal cases for consideration. In the Castillo case, in spite of the odds, CBLDF appealed to the Supreme Court on the chance that they would reverse what appeared to be an unjust and unconstitutional decision in the Texas courts. The principle was important, but we knew the odds were long."
>"Unfortunately, fighting the right battles is not a guarantee of winning," Fund Director Charles Brownstein says. "The Fund put up a strong fight for Castillo against the rising tide of repression. We were successful in knocking out the second charge against Jesus and in getting a sentence where no actual jail time was served, but unfortunately the higher courts would not correct the blinding injustice at the heart of this case."
>Fund board member Peter David says, "When dealing with the denseness of the 'Protect the children!' censorship hysteria in Texas, coupled with the unlikelihood that the Supreme Court would hear the case, this was almost a hopeless cause from the get-go. However, oftentimes it's the hopeless causes that are the ones worth fighting. This unfortunate and spectacularly unjust outcome doesn't change that."
>Burton Joseph adds, "One thing is clear, with every defeat of the First Amendment, the censors gain courage to pursue their unconstitutional ends. The Castillo case is among the most appalling cases of injustice ever to come to the attention of CBLDF. Conservative communities are quick to condemn comic book artists and publishers without an understanding that they enjoy the full panoply of First Amendment rights."
>"This case bodes badly for the First Amendment," Brownstein comments. "By choosing to deny Jesus' plea for justice, the Supreme Court has allowed a precedent to stand that allows a man to be convicted of obscenity charges without adequate proof being presented that the work he is convicted for selling is constitutionally obscene. All because the medium the alleged obscenity was placed in 'is for kids.'"
>Fund board member Neil Gaiman says, "I think the hardest thing to believe is that Jesus was found guilty of selling an adult comic, from the adult section of the store, to an adult police officer, and convicted because the DA convinced the jury that all comics are really intended for children. I can't imagine a world in which the same argument would have worked for books or for films -- and I'm afraid that highlights why comics retailers (and artists and writers and publishers) still need a Defense Fund, and still need to be defended."
>"Perhaps the worst thing about the decision is the chilling effect it will have on everyone else working with comics and graphic novels," says attorney and Fund board member Louise Nemschoff, adding, "As we approach another election year, we can expect to see an increase in such attacks on free expression. Now, more than ever, we need the CBLDF to both educate the public and defend those working in the industry from further incursion on First Amendment rights. It deserves our whole-hearted support."
>
>*****
>
>Scary, isn't it?
>
>What do all of you think?
>
>Steven A. Roman
>DeKalb Public Library
>309 Oak Street
>DeKalb, IL 60115
>815-756-9568
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Victoria Kemp [[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org]
>Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:41 AM
>To: Fiction_L
>Subject: RE: Comics
>
>I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction began.
>The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
>My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
>liked the Silver Surfer.
>Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
>new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we are
>having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
>different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
>librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that I
>believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older librarians
>who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What to
>do, what to do?
>If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available for
>kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
>reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
>Just my two cents' worth.
>Sincerely,
>Viccy Kemp
>The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
>
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
>---
>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>

FROM: "Victoria Kemp" <[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org>
REC'D: 1/8/04, 2:28 PM

The shirt I have I bought at the Texas Library Association meeting years
ago. I think I have seen one in the Bas Bleu catalog.
Viccy Kemp
The opinions are my own; the library wouldn't want 'em!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Bowser" <[removed]@lancaster.lib.pa.us>
To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:46 PM
Subject: FWD: RE: Comics

> Wow! Where did you get that tee shirt? That sums up my theory of
collection development in one sentence. As for Calvin and Hobbes, Calvin is
the kid I would have liked to have been, but I never had the nerve.
>
> Sue Bowser
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Victoria Kemp" <[removed]@fortworthlibrary.org>
> Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:41:14 -0600
>
> I have read all my life. Don't know how or why or when this addiction
began.
> The first book I remember buying for myself was "Champion Dog Prince Tom."
> My mother would NOT let me buy comics, but I read them anyway. I really
> liked the Silver Surfer.
> Fast forward to present time...I now evaluate, select and purchase all the
> new children's material for the Fort Worth Public Library system. And we
are
> having an ongoing debate about -- guess what -- graphic novels (which are
> different from comics, although similar in many ways). The younger
> librarians are all for them, citing the whole reluctant reader thing that
I
> believe to be true as well. That being said, there are many older
librarians
> who are greatly offended by the busty women and bulging muscle men. What
to
> do, what to do?
> If you don't like them, don't read them, but please make them available
for
> kids who need this encouragement to read. As one of my favorite tee-shirts
> reads "My library has something to offend everyone."
> Just my two cents' worth.
> Sincerely,
> Viccy Kemp
> The opinions are my own; the library woudn't want 'em!
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 1/9/04, 9:10 AM

>From: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: Comics (Informative, but long)
>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:08:36 -0600
>
>Did somebody say comics?
>
>Fortunately, Americans have recently begun to understand that comics are
>indeed a valid art form, a fact that much of the rest of the world
>(particularly Asia, Europe, and South America) has acknowledged for a very
>long time...

I notice a *lot* of "manga" in Barnes & Noble...

>Partly, this American assumption of comics being solely "for kids" was due
>to a book entitled Seduction of the Innocent, written by Dr. Wertham and
>published in 1954...

Which was considerably before Stan Lee burst upon the scene with his
psychologically complex and often tormented "heroes," who continue to
dominate the American comic scene, and indeed more or less forced the other
giant, DC, to begin running more "adult" storylines.

There's also the Pinis' "Elfquest" series and Stan Lynde's later Western
work--definitely not for *little* kids!

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
providers now. https://broadband.msn.com

FROM: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
REC'D: 1/9/04, 11:04 AM

Indeed, Christine (and everybody who's still reading this thread), manga (Japanese comics for anybody unfamiliar with the term) have made great headway among the American (especially child and teen) markets. As I mentioned earlier, part of this popularity is due to exactly that visibility in B&N and Borders, as well as other mainstream book stores.

For better or worse, most American comics are drowning in superheroes. Japanese comics, however, are far more diverse in genre and content, and can therefore appeal to a greater audience (or number of audiences). In addition, manga have managed to tap into the female market share in a way that American comics publishers would give their right eyes for. In fact, the Japanese have a term for a "style" of comic primarily directed at young women: shojo manga.

Insofar as Marvel & DC, these things go in cycles. Marvel started telling *more* psychologically complex stories in the 60s. However, their comics began to lose some of their edge at about the same time DC began making a major comeback in terms of the complexity and maturity of their storylines. Marvel hit its peak somewhere around the time of the Dark Phoenix saga, about 1980. However, in the 80s it was DC who then took the lead in comics for mature readers, with its titles Swamp Thing, John Constantine: Hellblazer, and most notably Sandman. It continued this trend into the 90s with The Invisibles, Transmetropolitan, Preacher, and a host of others. Marvel has started making a comeback in recent years, first by hiring away a *lot* of major talent, and second by developing its movie licensing. Many of these films have done more for Marvel than the comics themselves in recent years. The films have also been very successful in reviving the more mature themes that many of the comics have left behind.

In American comics, the more mature titles have been, by far, the shining exceptions to the rule. Wendy Pini's work on Elfquest was one of these (wonderful) exceptions, although I disagree that it wasn't for "little kids"; rather, I found it to be appropriate for almost all ages, say 10 years old to adult (perhaps even younger, though I was allowed to read whatever I wanted as a child from an early age). Elfquest had something to offer all of its readers, and the more sophisticated the reader, the more that reader got from the comic.

One of the big problems holding back American comics is that in the superhero comics, the greatest part of the market share (until, perhaps, very recently), there is no real change, only the illusion of change. Many stories have a beginning, middle, and end. By contrast, the superhero stories never *end*, persay. (For example, Spider-man was in high school in the 60s. He got *married* in the 1980s, and *still* looked to be in his twenties. If the comics *did* change, he'd be in his fifties right now!) This lack of change is even more glaring in comics than it is with interminable series of novels, in that the comics come out *every month*, rather than every year or couple of years.

This means that the comics try to reinvent their heroes in order to make them seem relevant, current, and (for lack of a better word) cool. However, this reinvention only happens about every 10 to 20 years or so; in the meantime, the stories and characters inevitably come to seem puerile and stagnant until the demands of the market *force* the publishers to transform their characters.

For example, in the 1980s the twin forces of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Alan Moore's Watchmen completely transformed the comics business. They brought a new sensibility and maturity to the comics; in fact, Moore's Watchmen would have received many awards as a decidedly postmodern literary text ... if it hadn't been a comic book. (Though it did, as I recall, at least win the Hugo award.) In any event, following these two comics series (later collected into graphic novels), suddenly, every hero had a "dark past" and "edgy violence" became par for the course (hence, the popularity of the Punisher comics in the mid-to-late 80s, a comic recently revived in the 2000s by the brilliant Garth Ennis, and soon to be made into a second, and hopefully much better, motion picture this year). This continued until the mid-to-late 90s (and was quickly tiresome far before then) when DC began transforming some of their properties into more noble characters once again, arguing that there was a need for "real" heroes in comics, as opposed to the "dark, gritty, violent" vigilantes so prevalent at the time. Funny, though, that in tone this was actually a step backward, a nostalgic grasp for the iconic "nobility" of heroes in the 50s.

Cycles, you see?

Now, DC *could* have asked far more mature questions, like ... If Superman, with his super-senses (or, perhaps, by actually *reading* the newspaper he wrote for!), could see and hear children being butchered in Rwanda, what the *hell* is he doing saving kittens from trees in the U.S.? Realistically, Superman would likely begin taking over our world and transforming it into a utopia. He would then, of course, be seen as a dictator by many. Simultaneously, many more would literally worship him as a god. And the comics have made it pretty clear that there are few, if any, other superheroes who could stop him. (Well, except for that pesky kryptonite problem. Amazing how often that stuff shows up, as it's supposed to be such a rare substance ...)

As an aside, Marvel explored this theme in the 80s with its Squadron Supreme limited series in the 80s. You can still get this groundbreaking comic series in a graphic novel collection today. DC explored it as well in their Kingdom Come limited series in the late 90s.

Back to Superman. An even more mature treatment of the Superman story would be to have him set himself up *as* a god. Think about it. You're a teenager. You're invulnerable to harm. You can not only walk on water, you can fly. You can kill with a glance. And you were raised by good, church-going American Kansas Midwestern farmers. Who would you think you were? Perhaps the second coming of Jesus Christ?

This is, of course, besides the fact that the Superman story is, essentially, a reworking of Messianic mythology. Boy comes down from the heavens. He's raised by salt-of-the-Earth parents rather than in riches and finery. He gradually comes into an awareness of his identity and powers, and accepts the mission to be humanity's savior. Come on ... we all know this story, don't we?

But the heroes don't change, because the comics publishers don't want to endanger their cash cows. Superman has been around since 1938, and the Marvel heroes appeared throughout the 60s. The Japanese market, however, while having some enduring properties, isn't afraid of letting stories come to an end and reinvesting talent into *new* properties. Thus, their industry is more vital and more diverse.

(Note that I have not *once* said that Japanese comics are *better* than American comics ...)

*takes breath*

Well, that's my 2 bits anyway. Or 2 dollars, considering all I've typed. Whatever.

In any event, comics luminary Warren Ellis spent a year documenting the state of the comics industry and its problems in a weekly column called "Come In Alone" on www.comicbookresources.com. Here is the URL for those articles, if you'd like to read more: http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/archive.cgi?column=cia.

Thanks for all who have been emailing me and / or replying to this thread-I'm enjoying the conversation immensely!

Steven A. Roman
DeKalb Public Library
309 Oak Street
DeKalb, IL 60115
815-756-9568

-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 9:07 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Comics (Informative, but long)

>From: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: Comics (Informative, but long)
>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:08:36 -0600
>
>Did somebody say comics?
>
>Fortunately, Americans have recently begun to understand that comics are
>indeed a valid art form, a fact that much of the rest of the world
>(particularly Asia, Europe, and South America) has acknowledged for a very
>long time...

I notice a *lot* of "manga" in Barnes & Noble...

>Partly, this American assumption of comics being solely "for kids" was due
>to a book entitled Seduction of the Innocent, written by Dr. Wertham and
>published in 1954...

Which was considerably before Stan Lee burst upon the scene with his
psychologically complex and often tormented "heroes," who continue to
dominate the American comic scene, and indeed more or less forced the other
giant, DC, to begin running more "adult" storylines.

There's also the Pinis' "Elfquest" series and Stan Lynde's later Western
work--definitely not for *little* kids!

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
providers now. https://broadband.msn.com

FROM: "Sue Bowser" <[removed]@lancaster.lib.pa.us>
REC'D: 1/9/04, 11:38 AM

I, too, am enjoying this thread. Some of you, like Steve, who are really into comics/GNs might be interested in the Graphic Novels in the Library list serve. Think of it as Fiction_L with a more specialized and, possibly, more fanatic membership. It's good for those who love the form and those, like me, who needed to learn more about them and all the practical problems of starting and maintaining a collection. Anyone interested can subscribe by emailing [removed]@topica.com.

Sue Bowser
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:58:42 -0600

>Indeed, Christine (and everybody who's still reading this thread), manga (Japanese comics for anybody unfamiliar with the term) have made great headway among the American (especially child and teen) markets. As I mentioned earlier, part of this popularity is due to exactly that visibility in B&N and Borders, as well as other mainstream book stores.
>
>For better or worse, most American comics are drowning in superheroes. Japanese comics, however, are far more diverse in genre and content, and can therefore appeal to a greater audience (or number of audiences). In addition, manga have managed to tap into the female market share in a way that American comics publishers would give their right eyes for. In fact, the Japanese have a term for a "style" of comic primarily directed at young women: shojo manga.
>
>Insofar as Marvel & DC, these things go in cycles. Marvel started telling *more* psychologically complex stories in the 60s. However, their comics began to lose some of their edge at about the same time DC began making a major comeback in terms of the complexity and maturity of their storylines. Marvel hit its peak somewhere around the time of the Dark Phoenix saga, about 1980. However, in the 80s it was DC who then took the lead in comics for mature readers, with its titles Swamp Thing, John Constantine: Hellblazer, and most notably Sandman. It continued this trend into the 90s with The Invisibles, Transmetropolitan, Preacher, and a host of others. Marvel has started making a comeback in recent years, first by hiring away a *lot* of major talent, and second by developing its movie licensing. Many of these films have done more for Marvel than the comics themselves in recent years. The films have also been very successful in reviving the more mature themes that many of the comi
>
>In American comics, the more mature titles have been, by far, the shining exceptions to the rule. Wendy Pini's work on Elfquest was one of these (wonderful) exceptions, although I disagree that it wasn't for "little kids"; rather, I found it to be appropriate for almost all ages, say 10 years old to adult (perhaps even younger, though I was allowed to read whatever I wanted as a child from an early age). Elfquest had something to offer all of its readers, and the more sophisticated the reader, the more that reader got from the comic.
>
>One of the big problems holding back American comics is that in the superhero comics, the greatest part of the market share (until, perhaps, very recently), there is no real change, only the illusion of change. Many stories have a beginning, middle, and end. By contrast, the superhero stories never *end*, persay. (For example, Spider-man was in high school in the 60s. He got *married* in the 1980s, and *still* looked to be in his twenties. If the comics *did* change, he'd be in his fifties right now!) This lack of change is even more glaring in comics than it is with interminable series of novels, in that the comics come out *every month*, rather than every year or couple of years.
>
>This means that the comics try to reinvent their heroes in order to make them seem relevant, current, and (for lack of a better word) cool. However, this reinvention only happens about every 10 to 20 years or so; in the meantime, the stories and characters inevitably come to seem puerile and stagnant until the demands of the market *force* the publishers to transform their characters.
>
>For example, in the 1980s the twin forces of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and Alan Moore's Watchmen completely transformed the comics business. They brought a new sensibility and maturity to the comics; in fact, Moore's Watchmen would have received many awards as a decidedly postmodern literary text ... if it hadn't been a comic book. (Though it did, as I recall, at least win the Hugo award.) In any event, following these two comics series (later collected into graphic novels), suddenly, every hero had a "dark past" and "edgy violence" became par for the course (hence, the popularity of the Punisher comics in the mid-to-late 80s, a comic recently revived in the 2000s by the brilliant Garth Ennis, and soon to be made into a second, and hopefully much better, motion picture this year). This continued until the mid-to-late 90s (and was quickly tiresome far before then) when DC began transforming some of their properties into more noble characters once again, arguing
>
>Cycles, you see?
>
>Now, DC *could* have asked far more mature questions, like ... If Superman, with his super-senses (or, perhaps, by actually *reading* the newspaper he wrote for!), could see and hear children being butchered in Rwanda, what the *hell* is he doing saving kittens from trees in the U.S.? Realistically, Superman would likely begin taking over our world and transforming it into a utopia. He would then, of course, be seen as a dictator by many. Simultaneously, many more would literally worship him as a god. And the comics have made it pretty clear that there are few, if any, other superheroes who could stop him. (Well, except for that pesky kryptonite problem. Amazing how often that stuff shows up, as it's supposed to be such a rare substance ...)
>
>As an aside, Marvel explored this theme in the 80s with its Squadron Supreme limited series in the 80s. You can still get this groundbreaking comic series in a graphic novel collection today. DC explored it as well in their Kingdom Come limited series in the late 90s.
>
>Back to Superman. An even more mature treatment of the Superman story would be to have him set himself up *as* a god. Think about it. You're a teenager. You're invulnerable to harm. You can not only walk on water, you can fly. You can kill with a glance. And you were raised by good, church-going American Kansas Midwestern farmers. Who would you think you were? Perhaps the second coming of Jesus Christ?
>
>This is, of course, besides the fact that the Superman story is, essentially, a reworking of Messianic mythology. Boy comes down from the heavens. He's raised by salt-of-the-Earth parents rather than in riches and finery. He gradually comes into an awareness of his identity and powers, and accepts the mission to be humanity's savior. Come on ... we all know this story, don't we?
>
>But the heroes don't change, because the comics publishers don't want to endanger their cash cows. Superman has been around since 1938, and the Marvel heroes appeared throughout the 60s. The Japanese market, however, while having some enduring properties, isn't afraid of letting stories come to an end and reinvesting talent into *new* properties. Thus, their industry is more vital and more diverse.
>
>(Note that I have not *once* said that Japanese comics are *better* than American comics ...)
>
>*takes breath*
>
>Well, that's my 2 bits anyway. Or 2 dollars, considering all I've typed. Whatever.
>
>In any event, comics luminary Warren Ellis spent a year documenting the state of the comics industry and its problems in a weekly column called "Come In Alone" on www.comicbookresources.com. Here is the URL for those articles, if you'd like to read more: http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/archive.cgi?column=cia.
>
>Thanks for all who have been emailing me and / or replying to this thread-I'm enjoying the conversation immensely!
>
>Steven A. Roman
>DeKalb Public Library
>309 Oak Street
>DeKalb, IL 60115
>815-756-9568
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 9:07 AM
>To: Fiction_L
>Subject: RE: Comics (Informative, but long)
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
>>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>>Subject: RE: Comics (Informative, but long)
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:08:36 -0600
>>
>>Did somebody say comics?
>>
>>Fortunately, Americans have recently begun to understand that comics are
>>indeed a valid art form, a fact that much of the rest of the world
>>(particularly Asia, Europe, and South America) has acknowledged for a very
>>long time...
>
>I notice a *lot* of "manga" in Barnes & Noble...
>
>>Partly, this American assumption of comics being solely "for kids" was due
>>to a book entitled Seduction of the Innocent, written by Dr. Wertham and
>>published in 1954...
>
>Which was considerably before Stan Lee burst upon the scene with his
>psychologically complex and often tormented "heroes," who continue to
>dominate the American comic scene, and indeed more or less forced the other
>giant, DC, to begin running more "adult" storylines.
>
>There's also the Pinis' "Elfquest" series and Stan Lynde's later Western
>work--definitely not for *little* kids!
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
>providers now. https://broadband.msn.com
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
>
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
>---
>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>

FROM: Dennis Lien <[removed]@tc.umn.edu>
REC'D: 1/12/04, 3:38 PM

At 10:58 AM 1/9/04 -0600, you wrote:
<snip> Alan Moore's Watchmen completely transformed the comics business.
They brought a new sensibility and maturity to the comics; in fact, Moore's
Watchmen would have received many awards as a decidedly postmodern literary
text ... if it hadn't been a comic book. (Though it did, as I recall, at
least win the Hugo award.) <snip>

WATCHMEN won a Hugo in 1988 in the "Other Forms" (catch-all) category.

Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN story, "A Midsummer Night's Dream," won a World
Fantasy Award for 1991 in the "Short Fiction" category. The WFC
administrators immediately changed the rules to make comic/graphic
novel work ineligible thereafter for such awards. Pfui.

Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu

FROM: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 1:13 PM

Dennis (and all),

Awful, isn't it? Fantasy & SF works aren't generally accepted by the literary mainstream, so to get any recognition they have to have their *own* awards committees. Then what do they do? Turn around and exclude comics & graphic novels.

Ugh. Somebody hit them with a clue x 4.

Steven Roman
DeKalb Public Library
309 Oak Street
DeKalb, IL 60115
815-758-2383

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Lien [[removed]@tc.umn.edu]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 3:34 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Comics (Still Informative, but still long)

At 10:58 AM 1/9/04 -0600, you wrote:
<snip> Alan Moore's Watchmen completely transformed the comics business.
They brought a new sensibility and maturity to the comics; in fact, Moore's
Watchmen would have received many awards as a decidedly postmodern literary
text ... if it hadn't been a comic book. (Though it did, as I recall, at
least win the Hugo award.) <snip>

WATCHMEN won a Hugo in 1988 in the "Other Forms" (catch-all) category.

Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN story, "A Midsummer Night's Dream," won a World
Fantasy Award for 1991 in the "Short Fiction" category. The WFC
administrators immediately changed the rules to make comic/graphic
novel work ineligible thereafter for such awards. Pfui.

Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu

FROM: Dennis Lien <[removed]@tc.umn.edu>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 1:57 PM

At 01:10 PM 1/13/04 -0600, you wrote:
>Dennis (and all),
>
>Awful, isn't it? Fantasy & SF works aren't generally accepted by the
literary >mainstream, <snip>

Speaking of which, and tying slightly into other recent discussions
here, I have to share this report from the latest ANSIBLE:

********
J.R.R.TOLKIEN is in the news again: the release of part three of a
certain film provoked the usual sneers from the great and good. Allan
Massie, Scots novelist and critic, was quick to publish a column in _The
Scotsman_ titled `Sorry, but grown-ups don't read Tolkien'. Thus: `His
work seems to me closer to science fiction than to myth and legend, and
has the characteristic weakness of that genre: indifference to the
complicated individual human being, indeed ignorance of him and her.'
[PC] [] Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have my
way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to the
continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.' (_Independent_,
20 December) [] <snip>

**************

ANSIBLE, Dave Langford's monthly sf newsletter, is available at

http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/

Much of Langford's other writing available at same site:

http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/writing/

Much of it hilarious; all of it fun.

Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 2:13 PM

Personally, I find that the Hobbit books (especially in hardback) are better
as doorstops than as reading matter, but only because I didn't enjoy them
very much. The intellectual snobs who disdain them as beneath their
literary selves are themselves beneath contempt. Let them, if they will,
read angst-ridden tales of wretched yuppies, whining women, and depressed
inhabitats of the Third World or their experimental fiction where such
trivialities as plot, character, dialogue, and comprehensibility are cast
aside so that the authors may rub readers' noses in their thoroughly
unpleasant souls. If this makes them feel better, fine. In these troubled
times, one takes comfort where one can. However, to disdain a yarn or a
cycle of yarns merely because they have given pleasure to large audiences is
a snobbery unacceptable in a civilized person.

Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East University
Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)

"Non, merci."
--Cyrano de Bergerac

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Lien [[removed]@tc.umn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:47 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
still long)

At 01:10 PM 1/13/04 -0600, you wrote:
>Dennis (and all),
>
>Awful, isn't it? Fantasy & SF works aren't generally accepted by the
literary >mainstream, <snip>

Speaking of which, and tying slightly into other recent discussions
here, I have to share this report from the latest ANSIBLE:

********
J.R.R.TOLKIEN is in the news again: the release of part three of a
certain film provoked the usual sneers from the great and good. Allan
Massie, Scots novelist and critic, was quick to publish a column in _The
Scotsman_ titled `Sorry, but grown-ups don't read Tolkien'. Thus: `His
work seems to me closer to science fiction than to myth and legend, and
has the characteristic weakness of that genre: indifference to the
complicated individual human being, indeed ignorance of him and her.'
[PC] [] Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have my
way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to the
continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.' (_Independent_,
20 December) [] <snip>

**************

ANSIBLE, Dave Langford's monthly sf newsletter, is available at

http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/

Much of Langford's other writing available at same site:

http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/writing/

Much of it hilarious; all of it fun.

Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu

FROM: "Sue Bowser" <[removed]@lancaster.lib.pa.us>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 2:41 PM

Perhaps my favorite review of all time was a lengthy screed on Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon. The reviewer went on for three paragraphs on what a fantastic book it was and, although it was only 1973, definitely would be the single best book of the second half of the 20th century. In fact, if not for James Joyce, it would be the best of the entire century. Then, at the beginning of the fourth paragraph, the reviewer revealed that he had been unable to read more than the first 50 pages. Call me crazy, but I think that one hallmark of a great book is that you can read the entire thing. Perhaps that's why I'm not a literary critic but a simple humble librarian.

Sue Bowser
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:09:31 -0500

>Personally, I find that the Hobbit books (especially in hardback) are better
>as doorstops than as reading matter, but only because I didn't enjoy them
>very much. The intellectual snobs who disdain them as beneath their
>literary selves are themselves beneath contempt. Let them, if they will,
>read angst-ridden tales of wretched yuppies, whining women, and depressed
>inhabitats of the Third World or their experimental fiction where such
>trivialities as plot, character, dialogue, and comprehensibility are cast
>aside so that the authors may rub readers' noses in their thoroughly
>unpleasant souls. If this makes them feel better, fine. In these troubled
>times, one takes comfort where one can. However, to disdain a yarn or a
>cycle of yarns merely because they have given pleasure to large audiences is
>a snobbery unacceptable in a civilized person.
>
>Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East University
>Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)
>
>"Non, merci."
>--Cyrano de Bergerac
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Lien [[removed]@tc.umn.edu]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:47 PM
>To: Fiction_L
>Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
>still long)
>
>
>At 01:10 PM 1/13/04 -0600, you wrote:
>>Dennis (and all),
>>
>>Awful, isn't it? Fantasy & SF works aren't generally accepted by the
>literary >mainstream, <snip>
>
>
>
>Speaking of which, and tying slightly into other recent discussions
>here, I have to share this report from the latest ANSIBLE:
>
>********
>J.R.R.TOLKIEN is in the news again: the release of part three of a
>certain film provoked the usual sneers from the great and good. Allan
>Massie, Scots novelist and critic, was quick to publish a column in _The
>Scotsman_ titled `Sorry, but grown-ups don't read Tolkien'. Thus: `His
>work seems to me closer to science fiction than to myth and legend, and
>has the characteristic weakness of that genre: indifference to the
>complicated individual human being, indeed ignorance of him and her.'
>[PC] [] Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
>sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
>Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
>ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
>man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have my
>way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to the
>continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
>bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.' (_Independent_,
>20 December) [] <snip>
>
>**************
>
>ANSIBLE, Dave Langford's monthly sf newsletter, is available at
>
>http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/
>
>Much of Langford's other writing available at same site:
>
>http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/writing/
>
>Much of it hilarious; all of it fun.
>
>Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://fictionl.webrary.org
>---
>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>

FROM: "Laura McCaffery" <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 3:03 PM

Comics, graphics and science fiction (actually most so called genres)
have long been one of my crusades. Add to that paperbacks and you will
be able to date how long I have been a librarian. A long time. When I
was a child in the 1930s I LOVED comics. During the polio scares of
that time my cousin;s mother went down town (we were not allowed out in
crowds) to the newsstand and bought new comics when they came out. I
recall the Green Lantern or maybe it was the Green Hornet, Superman,
Eerie, Weird, and others. There were great! I really liked them along
with my Big Little Books, my Micky Mouse Magazine, and stories in Boys
life and Country Gentleman. Now, fast forward to the fifties. I am
teaching and some of the other teachers read comics in stealth while
publicly confiscating them from students. Aaargh! Then come the
censors who have been lurking near all the time and begin to blame
comics for all the problems of the beltless,d.a. haired teenager with a
pachuko tattoo. Nevermind that in previous eras these same ills were
blamaed on the radio, the car or moving pictures. And then...Hello to
the Seal of approval. But do I ever digress. Comics, like the poor,
have and will be with us forever. At least I hope comics will. Graphic
novels remind me of the old comics that I recall as a child. Dark. If
libraries want to reflect the public's taste, they should include comics
and graphics. Our library has a lot of comics and graphics in its
popular paerback and display area that includes
circulating periodicals. These are in the adult collections. YA and
children have others. But it is really cool to see families come in
andcheck out comics for both adults and children. So up with comics! Up
with graphics! And I'll save Science fiction, fabntasy and genre for
another time. lmc

Laura Hibbets McCaffery
Nonprofit Resource Center
Readers' Services
Allen County Public Library
200 E. Berry
Fort Wayne IN 46802
260-421-1238
This is my opinion and mine alone. The
views, opinions, and judgements
expressed in this message are solely
those of the author. The message
contents have not been reviewed or
approved by the Allen County Public
Library.

>>> [removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us 01/13/04 03:09PM >>>
Personally, I find that the Hobbit books (especially in hardback) are
better
as doorstops than as reading matter, but only because I didn't enjoy
them
very much. The intellectual snobs who disdain them as beneath their
literary selves are themselves beneath contempt. Let them, if they
will,
read angst-ridden tales of wretched yuppies, whining women, and
depressed
inhabitats of the Third World or their experimental fiction where such
trivialities as plot, character, dialogue, and comprehensibility are
cast
aside so that the authors may rub readers' noses in their thoroughly
unpleasant souls. If this makes them feel better, fine. In these
troubled
times, one takes comfort where one can. However, to disdain a yarn or
a
cycle of yarns merely because they have given pleasure to large
audiences is
a snobbery unacceptable in a civilized person.

Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East
University
Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)

"Non, merci."
--Cyrano de Bergerac

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Lien [[removed]@tc.umn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:47 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
still long)

At 01:10 PM 1/13/04 -0600, you wrote:
>Dennis (and all),
>
>Awful, isn't it? Fantasy & SF works aren't generally accepted by the
literary >mainstream, <snip>

Speaking of which, and tying slightly into other recent discussions
here, I have to share this report from the latest ANSIBLE:

********
J.R.R.TOLKIEN is in the news again: the release of part three of a
certain film provoked the usual sneers from the great and good. Allan
Massie, Scots novelist and critic, was quick to publish a column in
_The
Scotsman_ titled `Sorry, but grown-ups don't read Tolkien'. Thus: `His
work seems to me closer to science fiction than to myth and legend,
and
has the characteristic weakness of that genre: indifference to the
complicated individual human being, indeed ignorance of him and her.'
[PC] [] Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have
my
way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to
the
continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.'
(_Independent_,
20 December) [] <snip>

**************

ANSIBLE, Dave Langford's monthly sf newsletter, is available at

http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/

Much of Langford's other writing available at same site:

http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/writing/

Much of it hilarious; all of it fun.

Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 3:25 PM

I have been to a couple of ILL meetings in my capacity as local ILL guru,
and I have actually heard librarians say that they don't bother even
cataloging genre fiction, let alone lending or borrowing it on ILL which
should be reserved for 'better' things. This tends to cause me to flip my
lid, as we used to say when I was a lot younger. There is a level of
presumption in such an attitude that even an intellectual snob like me can't
stomach. My favorite argument, and one that the culture-vultures have yet
to refute is "Well, even if you're right about saving ILL for higher things,
how do you know that that person who requested a handful of early Harlequins
isn't an independent scholar writing the definitive work on the romance
novel in contemporary American literature?" And I only give them the if
when I'm feeling charitable.

Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East University
Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)

"Non, merci."
--Cyrano de Bergerac

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura McCaffery [[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 3:50 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still
Informative,but still long)

Comics, graphics and science fiction (actually most so called genres)
have long been one of my crusades. Add to that paperbacks and you will
be able to date how long I have been a librarian. A long time. When I
was a child in the 1930s I LOVED comics. During the polio scares of
that time my cousin;s mother went down town (we were not allowed out in
crowds) to the newsstand and bought new comics when they came out. I
recall the Green Lantern or maybe it was the Green Hornet, Superman,
Eerie, Weird, and others. There were great! I really liked them along
with my Big Little Books, my Micky Mouse Magazine, and stories in Boys
life and Country Gentleman. Now, fast forward to the fifties. I am
teaching and some of the other teachers read comics in stealth while
publicly confiscating them from students. Aaargh! Then come the
censors who have been lurking near all the time and begin to blame
comics for all the problems of the beltless,d.a. haired teenager with a
pachuko tattoo. Nevermind that in previous eras these same ills were
blamaed on the radio, the car or moving pictures. And then...Hello to
the Seal of approval. But do I ever digress. Comics, like the poor,
have and will be with us forever. At least I hope comics will. Graphic
novels remind me of the old comics that I recall as a child. Dark. If
libraries want to reflect the public's taste, they should include comics
and graphics. Our library has a lot of comics and graphics in its
popular paerback and display area that includes
circulating periodicals. These are in the adult collections. YA and
children have others. But it is really cool to see families come in
andcheck out comics for both adults and children. So up with comics! Up
with graphics! And I'll save Science fiction, fabntasy and genre for
another time. lmc

Laura Hibbets McCaffery
Nonprofit Resource Center
Readers' Services
Allen County Public Library
200 E. Berry
Fort Wayne IN 46802
260-421-1238
This is my opinion and mine alone. The
views, opinions, and judgements
expressed in this message are solely
those of the author. The message
contents have not been reviewed or
approved by the Allen County Public
Library.

>>> [removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us 01/13/04 03:09PM >>>
Personally, I find that the Hobbit books (especially in hardback) are
better
as doorstops than as reading matter, but only because I didn't enjoy
them
very much. The intellectual snobs who disdain them as beneath their
literary selves are themselves beneath contempt. Let them, if they
will,
read angst-ridden tales of wretched yuppies, whining women, and
depressed
inhabitats of the Third World or their experimental fiction where such
trivialities as plot, character, dialogue, and comprehensibility are
cast
aside so that the authors may rub readers' noses in their thoroughly
unpleasant souls. If this makes them feel better, fine. In these
troubled
times, one takes comfort where one can. However, to disdain a yarn or
a
cycle of yarns merely because they have given pleasure to large
audiences is
a snobbery unacceptable in a civilized person.

Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East
University
Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)

"Non, merci."
--Cyrano de Bergerac

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Lien [[removed]@tc.umn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:47 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
still long)

At 01:10 PM 1/13/04 -0600, you wrote:
>Dennis (and all),
>
>Awful, isn't it? Fantasy & SF works aren't generally accepted by the
literary >mainstream, <snip>

Speaking of which, and tying slightly into other recent discussions
here, I have to share this report from the latest ANSIBLE:

********
J.R.R.TOLKIEN is in the news again: the release of part three of a
certain film provoked the usual sneers from the great and good. Allan
Massie, Scots novelist and critic, was quick to publish a column in
_The
Scotsman_ titled `Sorry, but grown-ups don't read Tolkien'. Thus: `His
work seems to me closer to science fiction than to myth and legend,
and
has the characteristic weakness of that genre: indifference to the
complicated individual human being, indeed ignorance of him and her.'
[PC] [] Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have
my
way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to
the
continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.'
(_Independent_,
20 December) [] <snip>

**************

ANSIBLE, Dave Langford's monthly sf newsletter, is available at

http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/

Much of Langford's other writing available at same site:

http://www.ansible.demon.co.uk/writing/

Much of it hilarious; all of it fun.

Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // [removed]@tc.umn.edu

FROM: "Val Stark" <[removed]@quincylibrary.org>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 3:30 PM

Don't most of us enjoy what the critics emphatically despise?

I, too, could not read the books, but found myself completely enthralled by the movies/stories.
They seemed to teach more about loyalty and friendship than much of what is seen or read today.
I was "forced" to read "Hobbit" in junior high and it ruined them for me. My personal feelings don't make them awful. Isn't the Librarian's motto "..never apologize for your reading tastes..." be they Harlequin romances, Tolkein, Shakespeare, Joyce or graphic novels?

Val Stark
Quincy Public Library

FROM: "Sarah Cody" <[removed]@bedlib.org>
REC'D: 1/13/04, 6:17 PM

Warning: Diatribe to follow...

Ouch. Public perception cuts me to the quick. I have not read comics/graphic novels all my life like some, but I am quickly becoming a convert. I have always been attracted to action superheroes in the form of TV cartoons, popular movies, etc. My introduction into the genre came from a young artistic-minded cousin who wanted to create his own comic book. He recommended to me the art work of Alex Ross (www.alexrossart.com if you are interested), and I was instantly impressed. The lighting and detail of these paintings and sketches is beautiful. I picked up KINGDOM COME first. I literally spent my New Year's Eve *quietly* being drawn into the world of the newly-reforming Justice League. Now I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, and I have a B.A. in English. Trust me--I've done some heavy readin' in my time. The writing and art in this GN were first rate. Never once did I feel like I was reading a "dumbed down" text fit only for children. The themes were very mature and very applicable to common trials that we all have on a (more normal?) daily basis.

On another note, our Library does have an adult graphic novel section separate from the Children/Young Adult sections. We have a diverse selection: from Cowboy Bebop to Earth X to Maus (excellent read, BTW). Everything for everyone. Don't like it; don't check it out.

As for the "grown-ups" don't read Tolkien opinion, ouch x2. I read Lord of the Rings first, then The Hobbit. Not only did I find the stories well written, but I was more impressed by the mythical world created in them. Reading them actually made me nostalgic for BEOWULF and SIR GAWAIN AND THE GREEN KNIGHT. They remind me of well-written (pardon the oxymoron) oral tales. *Don't start me on the pedagogy of kingship ritual in traditional oral tales.* To say that reading one author, whether Tolkien or not, leads to reading more of that author--well, OK, I'll buy into that. But that doesn't mean a reader can't be intrigued by similar writing styles. Otherwise reader's advisory would be bunk.

To make a long diatribe, well, end: There will always be somebody who will complain about/indicate disdain for everything. What we should all take pride in is that we offer (hopefully) a wide enough selection of materials to suit individual tastes. What we need to work on as people and library professionals is promoting better acceptance of an individual's right to read what they want. Promote displays, discussion groups, bookmarks and brochures, website information, etc. Breathe deeply and be open minded. What we may get (in reality) is an agreement to disagree.

There's always hope....
Sarah Cody
Reference Assistant
Bedford Public Library
Bedford, IN

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FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 1/14/04, 8:05 AM

>From: Dennis Lien <[removed]@tc.umn.edu>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
>still long)
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:47:27 -0600
>
Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
>sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
>Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
>ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
>man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have my
>way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to the
>continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
>bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.' (_Independent_,
>20 December) [] <snip>

That really seems a bit extreme. I know a *lot* of sf readers and they are
among the most intelligent, thoughtful, and articulate human beings on the
planet. (Just because they might like to get *off* the planet doesn't make
them any less so. In my opinion, it makes them, to coin a phrase, practical
visionaries.) Besides, sf and fantasy are two different things; many people
read one but not the other. And fantasy often deals with large themes,
especially the eternal struggle between Good and Evil.

Just another example of snobbery, I guess!

_________________________________________________________________
Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here.
https://broadband.msn.com

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 1/14/04, 8:10 AM

>From: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
> still long)
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:09:31 -0500
>
>However, to disdain a yarn or a
>cycle of yarns merely because they have given pleasure to large audiences
>is
>a snobbery unacceptable in a civilized person.
>

Well said! Personally, I read Tolkien in the 70's when I was just getting
into fantay and sf, because everyone told me I should. I can certainly see
why JRRT is considered the progenitor of modern "high" fantasy. But I have
to say that I didn't find the cycle all that enjoyable. It didn't turn me
off the genre; I've read literally hundreds of fantasies I liked better.
And it doesn't mean that I would diss the man or his readers. One man's
meat, and all that.

_________________________________________________________________
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FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 1/14/04, 8:27 AM

>From: "Laura McCaffery" <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative,but
>still long)
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:49:37 -0500
>
>Then come the
>censors who have been lurking near all the time and begin to blame
>comics for all the problems of the beltless,d.a. haired teenager with a
>pachuko tattoo. Nevermind that in previous eras these same ills were
>blamaed on the radio, the car or moving pictures.

Or the dime novel, or the singing of Frank Sinatra, who was once labelled
the "primary instigator of juvenile delinquency in the US." Which was
ridiculous, because Sinatra fans were almost entirely female and JD's were
mostly male. Why can't people understand that there *is* no one "cause"?
Some people just aren't strong enough to resist temptation. There have
*always* been "wild" kids and "bad" kids and maladjusted individuals, and
there always will be.

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FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 1/14/04, 8:33 AM

>From: "Val Stark" <[removed]@quincylibrary.org>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:22:57 -0600
>
>
>I was "forced" to read "Hobbit" in junior high and it ruined them for me.
>My personal feelings don't make them awful.

Exactly my feeling about Shakespeare. Or, for that matter, "A Tale of Two
Cities" and "Great Expectations." Yet I love "A Christmas Carol" (reread it
every Christmas), recently bought my own copy of "David Copperfield," and
quite enjoyed "Oliver Twist." Then I tried to reread "GE" and couldn't get
past the first few chapters.

_________________________________________________________________
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FROM: "Cristine Mitchamore" <[removed]@sanantonio.gov>
REC'D: 1/14/04, 6:15 PM

I've always wondered if that snobbery was really just a cover for their jealousy. At its best (or maybe I mean its most literary) science-fiction and fantasy both explore themes of good and evil, personal freedom and societal responsibilities. Sci-fi especially often holds up a mirror to our society and reflect its strengths and weakness and propose changes in such a way that people can explore the image without becoming defensive or rejecting the image simply because its our society. All of this, and an entertaining story! (That's where the jealousy comes in, methinks.)

Cristine
San Antonio Public Library
San Antonio, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wed 1/14/2004 8:00 AM
To: Fiction_L
Cc:
Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but still long)

>From: Dennis Lien <[removed]@tc.umn.edu>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
>still long)
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:47:27 -0600
>
Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
>sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.
>Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads
>ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you the
>man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I have my
>way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to the
>continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them in
>bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.' (_Independent_,
>20 December) [] <snip>

That really seems a bit extreme. I know a *lot* of sf readers and they are
among the most intelligent, thoughtful, and articulate human beings on the
planet. (Just because they might like to get *off* the planet doesn't make
them any less so. In my opinion, it makes them, to coin a phrase, practical
visionaries.) Besides, sf and fantasy are two different things; many people
read one but not the other. And fantasy often deals with large themes,
especially the eternal struggle between Good and Evil.

Just another example of snobbery, I guess!

_________________________________________________________________
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FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 1/15/04, 11:05 AM

I agree, it may be jealousy of authors who could write something that
others--large numbers of others--would pay for and read with pleasure. I
suspect that if some of these literati were making serious money from their
writing they would be nicer about popular fiction. We had a local literata
here once talking to the staff about the craft of writing, and she got very
snippy when somebody asked about popular writing. If she had ever had a
very popular book, I think she'd have been nicer about the writers of
popular fiction and the readers of same.

Kathleen Stipek, Alachua County Library District (FMG), 401 East University
Avenue, Gainesville, Florida 32601 (352-334-3939; fax 352-334-3948)

"Non, merci."
--Cyrano de Bergerac

-----Original Message-----
From: Cristine Mitchamore [[removed]@sanantonio.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 7:13 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative,
but still long)

I've always wondered if that snobbery was really just a cover for their
jealousy. At its best (or maybe I mean its most literary) science-fiction
and fantasy both explore themes of good and evil, personal freedom and
societal responsibilities. Sci-fi especially often holds up a mirror to our
society and reflect its strengths and weakness and propose changes in such a
way that people can explore the image without becoming defensive or
rejecting the image simply because its our society. All of this, and an
entertaining story! (That's where the jealousy comes in, methinks.)

Cristine
San Antonio Public Library
San Antonio, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wed 1/14/2004 8:00 AM
To: Fiction_L
Cc:
Subject: RE: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative, but
still long)

>From: Dennis Lien <[removed]@tc.umn.edu>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Genre Gets No Respect (was RE: Comics (Still Informative,
but
>still long)
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:47:27 -0600
>
Howard Jacobson, another novelist turned newspaper pundit, is
>sure that reading this stuff can do only harm: `Start low, end low.

>Tolkien does not lead ineluctably to Joyce or Conrad. Tolkien leads

>ineluctably to more Tolkien. Give me the child and I will show you
the
>man. Give Tolkien the child and he will stay a child. [...] If I
have my
>way, owners of these and other works which pose a similar threat to
the
>continuance of the human intelligence will be able to deposit them
in
>bins left outside police stations, no questions asked.'
(_Independent_,
>20 December) [] <snip>

That really seems a bit extreme. I know a *lot* of sf readers and
they are
among the most intelligent, thoughtful, and articulate human beings
on the
planet. (Just because they might like to get *off* the planet
doesn't make
them any less so. In my opinion, it makes them, to coin a phrase,
practical
visionaries.) Besides, sf and fantasy are two different things;
many people
read one but not the other. And fantasy often deals with large
themes,
especially the eternal struggle between Good and Evil.

Just another example of snobbery, I guess!

_________________________________________________________________
Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers
here.
https://broadband.msn.com


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