Fiction_L Archives horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition Dates: 2/11/05,1:03 PM  through  2/15/05,9:31 AM  (8 postings) Search for: Select one or more indexes to search: 2011-current     2009-2010     2004-2008    1995-2003    (Matches from each index will be displayed separately in the results page.) Return to February 2005 thread menu   |   Fiction_L Archives Menu

FROM: Phil Eskew <[removed]@monroe.lib.in.us>
REC'D: 2/11/05, 1:03 PM

Hello,

I've seen a nice, concise rule for distinguishing science fiction from
fantasy on the list. My question: is there a nice concise rule for
distinguishing fantasy from horror.

I'm thinking of classic "horror" writers like Lovecraft. For example,
would you consider "The Call of Cthulhu" fantasy, horror, or science
fiction. What about "The Shadow Out of Time"? I often wonder why certain
authors get pigeon-holed. For example, where would you shelve William
Hope Hodgson's "House on the Borderland"?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Phil Eskew
Monroe County Public Library
Bloomington, IN

______________________________________________________
"A library is an arsenal of liberty"

- Unknown

FROM: "Katie Gardner" <[removed]@plainfield.lib.il.us>
REC'D: 2/11/05, 2:11 PM

The following comes from my resident horror/fantasy fan (and husband):

....................

"The shadowy line between sci-fi, fantasy, and horror" by Bill Allan

Concise rule for distinguishing horror from fantasy:
First, judge the book - not the author (since many of the best horror
writers cross over the lines throughout their careers). Second, if the story
is something that could happen in the real world (albeit with some
suspension of disbelief) it is horror. If it is something that is far too
unrealistic to be possible, or is entirely set in another world or time that
never really existed, then it is fantasy.

IMHO, Lovecraft and Poe both fall under the realm of horror. Sure, they've
both written mysteries, sci-fi, and fantasy. But it is their horror writings
that remain the most intriguing and most popular. There are authors who are
either associated with Lovecraft (writing in the Cthulhu sub-genre that he
created) or influenced by him. Undoubtedly, many of these authors would
define themselves as sci-fi or fantasy writers as well. Here are some of
them:

Robert Bloch, J. Ramsey Campbell, Lin Carter, August Derleth, Robert E.
Howard, Stephen King, T.E.D. Klein, Henry Kuttner, Frank Belknap Long, Brian
Lumley, Clark Ashton Smith, and Colin Wilson to name but a few.

......................

Katie Gardner Allan
Reference & Readers' Advisory Librarian
Plainfield (IL) Public Library
[removed]@plainfield.lib.il.us

-----Original Message-----
From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]
On Behalf Of Phil Eskew
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:52 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition

Hello,

I've seen a nice, concise rule for distinguishing science fiction from
fantasy on the list. My question: is there a nice concise rule for
distinguishing fantasy from horror.

I'm thinking of classic "horror" writers like Lovecraft. For example,
would you consider "The Call of Cthulhu" fantasy, horror, or science
fiction. What about "The Shadow Out of Time"? I often wonder why certain
authors get pigeon-holed. For example, where would you shelve William
Hope Hodgson's "House on the Borderland"?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Phil Eskew
Monroe County Public Library
Bloomington, IN

______________________________________________________
"A library is an arsenal of liberty"

- Unknown

FROM: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
REC'D: 2/11/05, 2:17 PM

Well, I have a few ways of distinguishing in my head. I see horror and fantasy as, essentially, flipsides of each other.

But when I say horror, I mean *supernatural* horror, *not* suspense ficiton. I argue that suspense fiction (like Robert Bloch's Psycho) is firmly rooted in consensus reality, whereas horror violates consensus reality due to the supernatural element. Thus, fiction with serial killers falls under suspense, whereas fiction with werewolves and vampires falls under horror. This is, admittedly, a "quick and dirty" rule that I use in distinguishing between the two types of fiction, but it is sufficient for my purposes here.

I see fantasy as primarily the dream, and horror as the nightmare. The supernatural element is in each, but fantasy's purpose leans toward a sense of wonder and awe, whereas horror is meant to elicit a sense of dread, which is the flipside of wonder.

As to your example, the pulp fiction of the style that appeared in magazines like Weird Tales is something of a conundrum. Arguably, though Lovecraft is most often classified as "horror," he is arguably writing science fiction about other-dimensional beings who obey physical laws other than our own. But since his tales are meant to elicit fear, then I would classify them as horror.

Interestingly enough, I think much of what is termed as "pulp fantasy" or sword and sorcery (which I prefer far more than the Tolkienesque fantasy) could just as easily fit under the heading of "adventure horror." This would, of course, be the works of Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, etc.

Even more interestingly, I understand that in France (where Lovecraft's works have far more respect than they do here--what we'd do without S.T. Joshi, I don't know), they distinguish between horror and "weird" fiction as two separate genres.

This is a great question, though, and I hope there's some more good discussion on the subject.

~Roman

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Eskew [[removed]@monroe.lib.in.us]
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:52 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition

Hello,

I've seen a nice, concise rule for distinguishing science fiction from
fantasy on the list. My question: is there a nice concise rule for
distinguishing fantasy from horror.

I'm thinking of classic "horror" writers like Lovecraft. For example,
would you consider "The Call of Cthulhu" fantasy, horror, or science
fiction. What about "The Shadow Out of Time"? I often wonder why certain
authors get pigeon-holed. For example, where would you shelve William
Hope Hodgson's "House on the Borderland"?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Phil Eskew
Monroe County Public Library
Bloomington, IN

______________________________________________________
"A library is an arsenal of liberty"

- Unknown

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 2/11/05, 2:51 PM

>From: Phil Eskew <[removed]@monroe.lib.in.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:52:29 -0500 (EST)
>
>Hello,
>
>I've seen a nice, concise rule for distinguishing science fiction from
>fantasy on the list. My question: is there a nice concise rule for
>distinguishing fantasy from horror.
>
>I'm thinking of classic "horror" writers like Lovecraft. For example,
>would you consider "The Call of Cthulhu" fantasy, horror, or science
>fiction. What about "The Shadow Out of Time"? I often wonder why certain
>authors get pigeon-holed. For example, where would you shelve William
>Hope Hodgson's "House on the Borderland"?
>
>Any input would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Best,
>Phil Eskew
>Monroe County Public Library
>Bloomington, IN
>

It isn't official, but it seems to me that if the point of the book is to
make you jump out of your skin every time you hear a strange noise, then
it's horror. The deciding factor being, Is it intended to be scary, or is
its scariness an incidental, the way Smaug's scariness in "The Hobbit" is?

FROM: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
REC'D: 2/11/05, 3:08 PM

As a follow-up, Lovecraft seems to have thought of his work as "horror." You might also want to read his treatise: "Supernatural Horror in Literature."

~Roman

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Eskew [[removed]@monroe.lib.in.us]
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:52 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition

Hello,

I've seen a nice, concise rule for distinguishing science fiction from
fantasy on the list. My question: is there a nice concise rule for
distinguishing fantasy from horror.

I'm thinking of classic "horror" writers like Lovecraft. For example,
would you consider "The Call of Cthulhu" fantasy, horror, or science
fiction. What about "The Shadow Out of Time"? I often wonder why certain
authors get pigeon-holed. For example, where would you shelve William
Hope Hodgson's "House on the Borderland"?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Phil Eskew
Monroe County Public Library
Bloomington, IN

______________________________________________________
"A library is an arsenal of liberty"

- Unknown

FROM: C & J Heuer <[removed]@centurytel.net>
REC'D: 2/11/05, 6:20 PM

I particularly like this part of your definition. I will use that on my
cataloguers next time they appear at my desk with books in hand and ask
me where they should be placed. I know it won't work but it will be fun.

Mostly my cataloguers want to know if it is SF or fantasy. And that
line is blurry on many titles.

Jeanne Heuer
Brown County Library

On Friday, February 11, 2005, at 01:53 PM, Steve Roman wrote:

>
>
> I see fantasy as primarily the dream, and horror as the nightmare.

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 2/15/05, 9:14 AM

>From: C & J Heuer <[removed]@centurytel.net>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Re: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:18:26 -0600
>
>
>Mostly my cataloguers want to know if it is SF or fantasy. And that line is
>blurry on many titles.
>

I've never found it so. The primary indicator I go by is a definition I
heard once at a sci-fi con: "If it deals with an advanced technology, it's
sf; if it doesn't, it's fantasy." By this criterion, though sometimes
considered fantasy, the Pern and Darkover books have to be sf, because they
take place on distant planets, and the people had to use an advanced
technology to get there. Mercedes Lackey's urban fantasies are, of course,
fantasies, not only because their technology is contemporary (i.e. not
advanced), but because There Be Elves There!

FROM: "Steve Roman" <[removed]@NILS.LIB.IL.US>
REC'D: 2/15/05, 9:31 AM

I agree with the difficulties of distinction ... and I'm glad for it.

A lot of the early popularization of these genres came from the pulps, and the pulps didn't make a lot of hard genre distinctions. Thanks to a whole new slew of authors writing in what are currently, if tentatively, termed the New Weird and New Space Opera modes, authors who take the pulp style as their guides along with a bit of New Wave political and social sensibility, this genre blending will occur again.

Besides, a good deal of SF is simply Fantasy dressed in a shiny metal suit. They have wand envy. Really. Wands become ray guns and replicators, flying carpets become rocket packs, and magic becomes psionics.

Well, except for the Hard SF stuff in the last 20 years, but for the most part I've never been able to stomach that.

Your mileage may vary.

Steven A. Roman
DeKalb Public Library
309 Oak Street
DeKalb, IL 60115
815-756-9568

"This, to me, is the ultimately heroic trait of ordinary people; they say no to the tyrant and they calmly take the consequences of this resistance."
~Philip K. Dick

-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:06 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition

>From: C & J Heuer <[removed]@centurytel.net>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Re: horror vs. fantasy - looking for a simple definition
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:18:26 -0600
>
>
>Mostly my cataloguers want to know if it is SF or fantasy. And that line is
>blurry on many titles.
>

I've never found it so. The primary indicator I go by is a definition I
heard once at a sci-fi con: "If it deals with an advanced technology, it's
sf; if it doesn't, it's fantasy." By this criterion, though sometimes
considered fantasy, the Pern and Darkover books have to be sf, because they
take place on distant planets, and the people had to use an advanced
technology to get there. Mercedes Lackey's urban fantasies are, of course,
fantasies, not only because their technology is contemporary (i.e. not
advanced), but because There Be Elves There!

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