Fiction_L Archives Parents and Children Dates: 12/11/00,7:14 AM  through  1/1/01,4:35 PM  (57 postings) Search for: Select one or more indexes to search: 2011-current     2009-2010     2004-2008    1995-2003    (Matches from each index will be displayed separately in the results page.) Return to December 2000 thread menu   |   Fiction_L Archives Menu

FROM: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
REC'D: 12/11/00, 7:14 AM

I had to bite my tongue when a child asked her mother about Harry Potter and
was reminded that she wasn't allowed to read them...

FROM: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
REC'D: 12/11/00, 7:18 AM

I had to bite my tongue when a child asked her mother about Harry Potter and
was reminded that she wasn't allowed to read them...

FROM: [removed]@pcpls.lib.in.us (PCPLS SHRef)
REC'D: 12/13/00, 4:37 PM

Did mom give a reason? Had mom read the book?

Barbara Borg-Jenkins
South Haven Public Library
Valparaiso, IN 46385

Deb Warner wrote:

> I had to bite my tongue when a child asked her mother about Harry Potter and
> was reminded that she wasn't allowed to read them...
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
REC'D: 12/14/00, 8:37 AM

Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
----- Original Message -----
From: PCPLS SHRef <[removed]@pcpls.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


> Did mom give a reason? Had mom read the book?
>
> Barbara Borg-Jenkins
> South Haven Public Library
> Valparaiso, IN 46385
>
> Deb Warner wrote:
>
> > I had to bite my tongue when a child asked her mother about Harry Potter
and
> > was reminded that she wasn't allowed to read them...
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 12/14/00, 8:39 AM

I once saw a verse that should give all book-banners pause:

"A book whose sale's forbidden
All men rush to see
And thereby prohibition
Turns one reader into three."

........................................................................

Kathleen Stipek, Adult Services/Interlibrary Loans, Alachua County
Library District (FMG), 401 E. University AV, Gainesville FL 32601
[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us)
352-334-3938 (v) 352-334-3948 (f)

"Non, merci."--Cyrano de Bergerac


-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Warner [[removed]@co.durham.nc.us]
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 9:43 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
----- Original Message -----
From: PCPLS SHRef <[removed]@pcpls.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


> Did mom give a reason? Had mom read the book?
>
> Barbara Borg-Jenkins
> South Haven Public Library
> Valparaiso, IN 46385
>
> Deb Warner wrote:
>
> > I had to bite my tongue when a child asked her mother about Harry Potter
and
> > was reminded that she wasn't allowed to read them...
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: ROBIN BEERBOWER <[removed]@MAIL.OPEN.ORG>
REC'D: 12/14/00, 10:23 AM

This is so true. Just went and bought OBSIDIAN BUTTERFLY just to see
what the fuss is all about. And you know, I'm hooked on the darn
thing! :-)

Robin Beerbower
Outreach Services
Salem (OR) Public Library
PO Box 14810, Salem, OR 97309
[removed]@open.org
503-588-6089

>>> Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us> 12/14 6:33 AM
>>>
I once saw a verse that should give all book-banners pause:

"A book whose sale's forbidden
All men rush to see
And thereby prohibition
Turns one reader into three."

........................................................................

Kathleen Stipek, Adult Services/Interlibrary Loans, Alachua County
Library District (FMG), 401 E. University AV, Gainesville FL 32601
[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us)
352-334-3938 (v) 352-334-3948 (f)

"Non, merci."--Cyrano de Bergerac


-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Warner [[removed]@co.durham.nc.us]
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 9:43 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't
agree. I
had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
----- Original Message -----
From: PCPLS SHRef <[removed]@pcpls.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


> Did mom give a reason? Had mom read the book?
>
> Barbara Borg-Jenkins
> South Haven Public Library
> Valparaiso, IN 46385
>
> Deb Warner wrote:
>
> > I had to bite my tongue when a child asked her mother about Harry
Potter
and
> > was reminded that she wasn't allowed to read them...
> >
> >
......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
>
......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/16/00, 8:55 AM

>From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
>
>Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
>it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
>I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
>right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
>had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB

Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
house...censorship never works...


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "Ruth Clark" <[removed]@dakota.lib.mn.us>
REC'D: 12/16/00, 2:37 PM

Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent deems
inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition, is
done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that we
would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has a
parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her back,
no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but we've
discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
reading - don't look down on them!

-----Original Message-----
From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
[[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: Parents and Children

>From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
>
>Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
>it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
>I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
>right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
>had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB

Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
house...censorship never works...


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: Carol Elmore <[removed]@westga.edu>
REC'D: 12/16/00, 5:23 PM

Just for another viewpoint...my daughter, now thirty, was allowed to read
whatever she chose and we discussed the "good, the bad and the ugly." As
a result she has matured into a compassionate, almost conservative, adult.
I tried very hard to make her understand that in many cases there is no
right or worng...just different views. I think that letting her read a
wide variety of subjects and not choosing her books for her, allowed her
to develope into the person she is today. She is much more
tolerant of the views of others than her mother has ever been.
At the same time, I think parents who take an active part in their
children's lives are great, at the same time I believe that knowledge is
the most important weapon anyone can possess!
My views are my own etc...
Carole Elmore
On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Ruth Clark
wrote:

> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition, is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 7:19 AM

I've a rihght to my opinion and i expect it to be respected, just as I
respect hers. I am tirwed of the subject. DEB
----- Original Message -----
From: Ruth Clark <[removed]@dakota.lib.mn.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition,
is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that
we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has
a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree.
I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: "Fae Bitney" <[removed]@bloomnet.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 8:16 AM

This latest correspondence ruffled my feathers! Teaching a child how to go
behind her parents' back teaches her a lack of respect for her parents. We
may not agree with someone but we should respect their decisions, whether
for themselves or raising their children!
Personally, I tried reading Harry Potter twice and found it not worth
finishing. But I still will recommend it to patrons who are interested and
will be respectful to those who are not interested.

Fae Bitney
Neligh Public Library
----- Original Message -----
From: christine jeffords <[removed]@hotmail.com>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Parents and Children

>From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
>
>Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
>it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
>I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
>right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
>had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB

Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
house...censorship never works...


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: Barbara Perkins <[removed]@irving.lib.tx.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 8:52 AM

My mother did the same for me when I was growing up. In fact, when I was
about 15, she saw me reading a copy of
Forever Amber. Her eyes widened a little and she said, "Do you know what
that book is about?"

And I replied with all of the insouciance of a teenager, "Well, it's about
one of Charles II's mistresses. She's pretty
stupid, actually, and she needs to forget about Bruce."

I remember Mom cracking up.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Elmore [[removed]@westga.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:22 PM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: RE: Parents and Children
>
> Just for another viewpoint...my daughter, now thirty, was allowed to read
> whatever she chose and we discussed the "good, the bad and the ugly." As
> a result she has matured into a compassionate, almost conservative, adult.
> I tried very hard to make her understand that in many cases there is no
> right or worng...just different views. I think that letting her read a
> wide variety of subjects and not choosing her books for her, allowed her
> to develope into the person she is today. She is much more
> tolerant of the views of others than her mother has ever been.
> At the same time, I think parents who take an active part in their
> children's lives are great, at the same time I believe that knowledge is
> the most important weapon anyone can possess!
> My views are my own etc...
> Carole Elmore
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Ruth Clark
> wrote:
>
> > Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
> > monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
> deems
> > inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by
> definition, is
> > done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged
> that we
> > would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> > concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be
> here
> > at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid
> has a
> > parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
> back,
> > no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> > discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> > because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
> we've
> > discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all
> of
> > the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> > recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's
> great
> > fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> > reading - don't look down on them!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> > [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> > To: Fiction_L
> > Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> > >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> > >
> > >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
> impression
> > >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
> witches.
> > >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
> parent's
> > >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't
> agree. I
> > >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
> >
> > Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> > mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> > house...censorship never works...
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: Vicki Biehl <[removed]@yahoo.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 8:56 AM

We can talk around this topic and never agree. But to
be fair--no one suggested teaching the child to go
around her parents' backs. It was merely acknowledged
that the child might in fact do that (with no help
from one of us.)

Shall we all just agree to disagree on the subject of
what a child may or may not read, but also be on our
best professional behavior when it comes up at work?

Vicki Biehl
Pearl River Public Library
Pearl River, NY


--- Fae Bitney <[removed]@bloomnet.com> wrote:
> This latest correspondence ruffled my feathers!
> Teaching a child how to go
> behind her parents' back teaches her a lack of
> respect for her parents. We
> may not agree with someone but we should respect
> their decisions, whether
> for themselves or raising their children!
> Personally, I tried reading Harry Potter twice and
> found it not worth
> finishing. But I still will recommend it to patrons
> who are interested and
> will be respectful to those who are not interested.
>
> Fae Bitney
> Neligh Public Library
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: christine jeffords <[removed]@hotmail.com>
> To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L"
> <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed.
> I had the the impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books
> about magic and witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and
> because I respect a parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I
> personally don't agree. I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read
> it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the
> library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a
> friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L:
> http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
>
>
......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L:
http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 9:04 AM

The copy of Forever Amber that I read was my mother's. When it was banned
in Boston she got on a train from Springfield MA to New York City, walked
into the first bookstore she saw and bought a copy because no "bluenose in
Boston" was going to tell her what she could and couldn't read. I've still
got it.

And your daughter was right about Amber's IQ.

........................................................................
.....................
Kathleen Stipek, Adult Services/Interlibrary Loans, Alachua County
Library District (FMG), 401 E. University AV, Gainesville FL 32601
[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us)
352-334-3938 (v) 352-334-3948 (f)

"Non, merci."--Cyrano de Bergerac


-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Perkins [[removed]@irving.lib.tx.us]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 9:51 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


My mother did the same for me when I was growing up. In fact, when I was
about 15, she saw me reading a copy of
Forever Amber. Her eyes widened a little and she said, "Do you know what
that book is about?"

And I replied with all of the insouciance of a teenager, "Well, it's about
one of Charles II's mistresses. She's pretty
stupid, actually, and she needs to forget about Bruce."

I remember Mom cracking up.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Elmore [[removed]@westga.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:22 PM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: RE: Parents and Children
>
> Just for another viewpoint...my daughter, now thirty, was allowed to read
> whatever she chose and we discussed the "good, the bad and the ugly." As
> a result she has matured into a compassionate, almost conservative, adult.
> I tried very hard to make her understand that in many cases there is no
> right or worng...just different views. I think that letting her read a
> wide variety of subjects and not choosing her books for her, allowed her
> to develope into the person she is today. She is much more
> tolerant of the views of others than her mother has ever been.
> At the same time, I think parents who take an active part in their
> children's lives are great, at the same time I believe that knowledge is
> the most important weapon anyone can possess!
> My views are my own etc...
> Carole Elmore
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Ruth Clark
> wrote:
>
> > Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
> > monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
> deems
> > inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by
> definition, is
> > done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged
> that we
> > would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> > concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be
> here
> > at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid
> has a
> > parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
> back,
> > no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> > discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> > because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
> we've
> > discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all
> of
> > the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> > recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's
> great
> > fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> > reading - don't look down on them!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> > [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> > To: Fiction_L
> > Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> > >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> > >
> > >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
> impression
> > >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
> witches.
> > >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
> parent's
> > >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't
> agree. I
> > >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
> >
> > Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> > mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> > house...censorship never works...
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: Susan Sanders <[removed]@scls.lib.wi.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 9:08 AM

Poor kids.


At 02:42 PM 12/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
>monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent deems
>inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition, is
>done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that we
>would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
>concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
>at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has a
>parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her back,
>no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
>discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
>because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but we've
>discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
>the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
>recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
>fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
>reading - don't look down on them!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
>[[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
>Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
>To: Fiction_L
>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
>>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
>>
>>Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
>>it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
>>I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
>>right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
>>had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
>Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
>mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
>house...censorship never works...
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>

FROM: Barbara Perkins <[removed]@irving.lib.tx.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 9:16 AM

You know, speaking of Amber, I keep hearing people compare her to Scarlet
and I never
thought she was anything like Scarlet.

Good for your mom!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen Stipek [[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us]
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 8:56 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: RE: Parents and Children
>
> The copy of Forever Amber that I read was my mother's. When it was banned
> in Boston she got on a train from Springfield MA to New York City, walked
> into the first bookstore she saw and bought a copy because no "bluenose in
> Boston" was going to tell her what she could and couldn't read. I've
> still
> got it.
>
> And your daughter was right about Amber's IQ.
>
> ........................................................................
> .....................
> Kathleen Stipek, Adult Services/Interlibrary Loans, Alachua County
> Library District (FMG), 401 E. University AV, Gainesville FL 32601
> [removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us)
> 352-334-3938 (v) 352-334-3948 (f)
>
> "Non, merci."--Cyrano de Bergerac
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barbara Perkins [[removed]@irving.lib.tx.us]
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 9:51 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: RE: Parents and Children
>
>
> My mother did the same for me when I was growing up. In fact, when I was
> about 15, she saw me reading a copy of
> Forever Amber. Her eyes widened a little and she said, "Do you know what
> that book is about?"
>
> And I replied with all of the insouciance of a teenager, "Well, it's about
> one of Charles II's mistresses. She's pretty
> stupid, actually, and she needs to forget about Bruce."
>
> I remember Mom cracking up.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carol Elmore [[removed]@westga.edu]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:22 PM
> > To: Fiction_L
> > Subject: RE: Parents and Children
> >
> > Just for another viewpoint...my daughter, now thirty, was allowed to
> read
> > whatever she chose and we discussed the "good, the bad and the ugly." As
> > a result she has matured into a compassionate, almost conservative,
> adult.
> > I tried very hard to make her understand that in many cases there is no
> > right or worng...just different views. I think that letting her read a
> > wide variety of subjects and not choosing her books for her, allowed her
> > to develope into the person she is today. She is much more
> > tolerant of the views of others than her mother has ever been.
> > At the same time, I think parents who take an active part in their
> > children's lives are great, at the same time I believe that knowledge
> is
> > the most important weapon anyone can possess!
> > My views are my own etc...
> > Carole Elmore
> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Ruth Clark
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough
> to
> > > monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
> > deems
> > > inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by
> > definition, is
> > > done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged
> > that we
> > > would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they
> are
> > > concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be
> > here
> > > at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid
> > has a
> > > parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
> > back,
> > > no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> > > discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> > > because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
> > we've
> > > discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of
> all
> > of
> > > the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> > > recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's
> > great
> > > fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> > > reading - don't look down on them!
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> > > [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> > > To: Fiction_L
> > > Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> > > >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > > >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> > > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
> > impression
> > > >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
> > witches.
> > > >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
> > parent's
> > > >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't
> > agree. I
> > > >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
> > >
> > > Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without*
> her
> > > mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> > > house...censorship never works...
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > >
> > >
> > > ......................................................................
> > > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> > >
> > >
> > > ......................................................................
> > > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: "Joy Tofteland" <[removed]@ankeny.k12.ia.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 10:13 AM

For all librarians who may not understand how any parent could possible
object to anything as innocent as Harry Potter, please read "Hunting down
Harry Potter: an exploration of religious concerns about children's
literature." by Kimbra Wilder Gish which appeared in the May 01, 2000
edition of the Horn Book Magazine (v76, no3; p262). It is a well-reasoned
presentation of the religious objections to children's books about
witchcraft and the supernatural written by a librarian. I think you owe it
to the parents to be able to appreciate their point of view.

Joy Tofteland
Kirkendall Public Library
Ankeny, IA

FROM: "Bill Crowley" <[removed]@email.dom.edu>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 10:56 AM

Greetings All:

Time out - the comment below is, with luck, an aberration and I trust
that the commentator now regrets her words.

I have faced numerous censorship issues in twenty-three years of
work as a reference librarian, PR specialist, consultant, regional
system administrator, and deputy state librarian. Now, as an academic
in his fifth year of teaching, I find myself arguing for the greatest
possible access to materials for everyone, regardless of age.
However, I try to remind my students that they owe respect to their
intellectual opponents. At a minimum, we need to recognize that this
country supports the right of parents to guide their children. As a
professional and educator, I simply have problems with parents trying
to guide someone else's child.

I trust that this sort of attack will not be repeated.

Bill


Date sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:04:44 -0600
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
From: Susan Sanders <[removed]@scls.lib.wi.us>
Subject: RE: Parents and Children
Send reply to: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>

> Poor kids.
>
>
> At 02:42 PM 12/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough
> >to monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the
> >parent deems inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor."
> >Censorship, by definition, is done by the government, not by the
> >family. When groups are outraged that we would carry a certain item
> >in the library, we tell them that if they are concerned about their
> >children's reading and viewing, they need to be here at the library
> >with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has a parent
> >who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her back,
> >no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> >discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> >because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!),
> >but we've discussed the matter at home and my children are more than
> >aware of all of the myriad of better reading material available at
> >the library. For recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/
> >have read. It's great fun! Please, just give parents credit for
> >monitoring their children's reading - don't look down on them!
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> >[[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine
> >jeffords Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM To: Fiction_L
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >>
> >>Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
> >>impression it was one of those religious objections to books about
> >>magic and witches. I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and
> >>because I respect a parent's right to direct their child's reading,
> >>even if I personally don't agree. I had a feeling the daughter
> >>rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
> >
> >Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without*
> >her mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> >house...censorship never works...
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________ Get
> >your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >.....................................................................
> >. Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives? Everything
> >Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
> >.....................................................................
> >. Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives? Everything
> >Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives? Everything
> Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html


Bill Crowley, Associate Professor
Graduate School of Library and Information Science
Dominican University
7900 West Division Street
River Forest, Illinois 60305
[removed]@email.dom.edu
708.524.6513
FAX: 708.524.6657

FROM: "Jeanne Linn" <[removed]@libby.org>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 11:45 AM

Very good point Bill, thanks! Jeanne


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Crowley <[removed]@email.dom.edu>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Monday, December 18, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: A Strong Objection to Personal Attacks


Greetings All:

Time out - the comment below is, with luck, an aberration and I trust
that the commentator now regrets her words.

I have faced numerous censorship issues in twenty-three years of
work as a reference librarian, PR specialist, consultant, regional
system administrator, and deputy state librarian. Now, as an academic
in his fifth year of teaching, I find myself arguing for the greatest
possible access to materials for everyone, regardless of age.
However, I try to remind my students that they owe respect to their
intellectual opponents. At a minimum, we need to recognize that this
country supports the right of parents to guide their children. As a
professional and educator, I simply have problems with parents trying
to guide someone else's child.

I trust that this sort of attack will not be repeated.

Bill


Date sent: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:04:44 -0600
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
From: Susan Sanders <[removed]@scls.lib.wi.us>
Subject: RE: Parents and Children
Send reply to: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>

> Poor kids.
>
>
> At 02:42 PM 12/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough
> >to monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the
> >parent deems inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor."
> >Censorship, by definition, is done by the government, not by the
> >family. When groups are outraged that we would carry a certain item
> >in the library, we tell them that if they are concerned about their
> >children's reading and viewing, they need to be here at the library
> >with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has a parent
> >who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her back,
> >no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> >discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> >because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!),
> >but we've discussed the matter at home and my children are more than
> >aware of all of the myriad of better reading material available at
> >the library. For recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/
> >have read. It's great fun! Please, just give parents credit for
> >monitoring their children's reading - don't look down on them!
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> >[[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine
> >jeffords Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM To: Fiction_L
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >>Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >>
> >>Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
> >>impression it was one of those religious objections to books about
> >>magic and witches. I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and
> >>because I respect a parent's right to direct their child's reading,
> >>even if I personally don't agree. I had a feeling the daughter
> >>rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
> >
> >Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without*
> >her mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> >house...censorship never works...
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________ Get
> >your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >.....................................................................
> >. Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives? Everything
> >Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
> >.....................................................................
> >. Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives? Everything
> >Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives? Everything
> Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html


Bill Crowley, Associate Professor
Graduate School of Library and Information Science
Dominican University
7900 West Division Street
River Forest, Illinois 60305
[removed]@email.dom.edu
708.524.6513
FAX: 708.524.6657

FROM: "Carl Heffington" <[removed]@lmxac.org>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 11:47 AM

totally agree
----- Original Message -----
From: Ruth Clark <[removed]@dakota.lib.mn.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition,
is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that
we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has
a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree.
I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
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FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 1:16 PM

>From: "Fae Bitney" <[removed]@bloomnet.com>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:14:35 -0600
>
>This latest correspondence ruffled my feathers! Teaching a child how to go
>behind her parents' back teaches her a lack of respect for her parents.

It's not a question of "teaching." Any child with normal intelligence would
be able to figure this out for herself, just as she would be able to figure
out that she could try on makeup or play videogames at a friend's house, or
have sex in the bushes behind the cafeteria.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 1:24 PM

>From: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: Parents and Children
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:55:58 -0500
>
>The copy of Forever Amber that I read was my mother's. When it was banned
>in Boston she got on a train from Springfield MA to New York City, walked
>into the first bookstore she saw and bought a copy because no "bluenose in
>Boston" was going to tell her what she could and couldn't read. I've still
>got it.
>
>And your daughter was right about Amber's IQ.
>
>

I never read the book myself, though I do recall reading that it was
"earnestly bad." On the other hand, I'm quite sure it wasn't anywhere near
as explicit as some of the books we see today! Am I right, ladies?


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 2:40 PM

I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
this one has?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 2:50 PM

I faintly remember that when I was in library school (1981-82) there was a
stink about The Chronicles of Narnia because some churchwomen's groups
objected to the magic. I never understood that one because Narnia is so
decidedly a Christian allegory.

I also remember that in my first gig as a librarian (1983ish) there was a
problem in the Polk County (Florida) schools over L'Engle's A Wrinkle in
Time--and its 2 sequels as well.

........................................................................
.....................
Kathleen Stipek, Adult Services/Interlibrary Loans, Alachua County
Library District (FMG), 401 E. University AV, Gainesville FL 32601
[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us)
352-334-3938 (v) 352-334-3948 (f)

"Non, merci."--Cyrano de Bergerac


-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:37 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: The Potteroid controversy


I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
this one has?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: Barbara Perkins <[removed]@irving.lib.tx.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 2:55 PM

I have often wondered that myself. Do you think that it is because of the
spells that are cast? Many of my patrons
believe that we are in the endtime (and I do myself, actually) and seem to
be extremely careful about what they read
and view and listen to. While I honor this belief/preference, I enjoyed the
books. But, then, I also enjoy The Sopranos
on HBO and that is pretty raw. I am fascinated week after week by Tony's
struggle to balance his "work" and
family. He is trapped by his heritage, in many ways and each episode always
makes me think for days afterward....
about the nature of good and evil and the choices we make.
(oops...I'm off the subject.....again.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 2:37 PM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: The Potteroid controversy
>
> I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
> Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
> stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you
> suppose
> this one has?
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: Renee Patterson <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 3:15 PM

Because these books sold more copies/are more popular.

You get much more press protesting Harry than you would have gotten
protesting the others.

my .02, :)

Renee Patterson
_____________________________
High Springs Branch
Alachua County Library District
High Springs, FL
[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of my
employer.


-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:37 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: The Potteroid controversy


I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
this one has?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 3:26 PM

>From: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:47:51 -0500
>
>I faintly remember that when I was in library school (1981-82) there was a
>stink about The Chronicles of Narnia because some churchwomen's groups
>objected to the magic. I never understood that one because Narnia is so
>decidedly a Christian allegory.
>
>I also remember that in my first gig as a librarian (1983ish) there was a
>problem in the Polk County (Florida) schools over L'Engle's A Wrinkle in
>Time--and its 2 sequels as well.
>

But these were local, no? I'm thinking of national, which the current
Harry-flap seems to be.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "Kathryn Mannix" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 3:45 PM

I think it is due in large part to the belief people have that if children
like anything in abundance there must be something wrong with it. Harry
Potter has been so popular that people question why. I think that,
unfortunately, if people see children liking something on such a large scale
they see it as bad because "You know children these days they are completely
corrupted and do not understand or have any morals." At least that is what
I have heard people say. They have trouble looking beyond to the joy the
story brings. They look for the bad because they do not want to admit what
a positive influence Harry Potter is. I have also noticed in my contact
with people who are so against Harry that they are the ones who have not
read the books. I know of no one who has actually taken the time to read
them and see what they are really about that has seen any evidence of evil
in them. In fact, many I know who used to think that the people who claimed
Harry promotes the devil or wicca or anything evil have, after having read
them, seen how ridiculous a claim this actually is.

Kate Mannix
MLS Student
Dominican U.
_________________________________________________________________
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FROM: [removed]@aol.com
REC'D: 12/18/00, 3:59 PM

I think it may be simply because Harry Potter garnered so much attention in general-so many copies sold, such a hoopla. The Narnia Chronicles and the Half Magic books (my personal childhood favorites, along w/Mary Poppins-who has known her share of censorship, difficult though that may be to believe) never made that kind of splash. The media push brought it to the attention of many adults who might never have given the book a second glance. My mother never read any of the books I read once I was reading on my own, but she might have been more curious had she seen news stories characterizing my choice as controversial. Relative to that other string, I used to sneak into the basement to read Auntie Mame, cause my mother thought the subject matter too old for me (OK-she sat up and took notice when I started to read books she had read!) Just my opinion.

FROM: [removed]@pcpls.lib.in.us (PCPLS SHRef)
REC'D: 12/18/00, 4:19 PM

The Harry Potter book has been featured on several Urban Legend forums--there
have been many spam e-mails blaming the Harry Potter books as promoting
Satanism.

It could be that these Urban Legend e-mails, which circulate faster than snail
mail chain letters, could be behind all the bad press.

Instead of reading the books and judging for themselves, some people choose to
let others do the thinking for them.

Barbara Borg-Jenkins
South Haven Public Library
Valparaiso, In 46385


christine jeffords wrote:

> I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
> Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
> stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
> this one has?
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html

FROM: J Heuer <[removed]@itol.com>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 4:36 PM

I agree with Renee. With the publicity parents actually read or skimmed or
at least looked at the summaries of the books and decided for whatever
reason that they did not wish their child to read them. I find Philip
Pullman's Dark Materials series much more controversial but nobody knows who
he is or has read his books except librarians and savvy YA readers.

--
Jeanne Heuer
Brown County Library
Green Bay, WI
[removed]@itol.com

"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes, Art is knowing which ones
to keep." -anonymous
> From: Renee Patterson <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
> Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:08:57 -0500
> To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy
>
> Because these books sold more copies/are more popular.
>
> You get much more press protesting Harry than you would have gotten
> protesting the others.
>
> my .02, :)
>
> Renee Patterson
> _____________________________
> High Springs Branch
> Alachua County Library District
> High Springs, FL
> [removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us
>
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of my
> employer.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:37 PM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: The Potteroid controversy
>
>
> I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
> Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
> stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
> this one has?
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: Jeanne Etling <[removed]@ccs.nsls.lib.il.us>
REC'D: 12/18/00, 5:56 PM

I feel that many people fear Satanism and that anything dealing with magic
or spells is to be feared or avoided. There are church schools in our
district which have banned the Harry Potter books. It's rather
interesting because I've been reading Sharan Newman's books which take
place in Medieval France and England and people believed that demons and
hobgoblins existed particularly in forests and one didn't travel at night
because of them unless one was well protected.

These are just my own opinions,

Jeanne Etling
Dundee (IL) Township Public Library District

FROM: Alicia Graybill <[removed]@rand.lcl.lib.ne.us>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 9:47 AM

Hello:
If the list can tolerate one more post about the subject, here goes.

I have just finished reading all 4 of the Potter books. I also happen to
be a practicing Wiccan. The spells are not the problem. The flying
broomsticks and the various magickal phenomena are not the problem, IMO,
for most of the parents. What _is_ the problem is some of the basic
philosophy in the books. Most conservative Christians (not all, this is
not a stereotype please) would find certain concepts in the books
objectionable. Concept #1: Death is not to be feared; it's the next great
adventure. Heaven or hell doesn't figure into it at all if this is your
take on life (it is mine). Concept #2: While you may be destined to
face some big problems, your fate is your own to decide. You need no
higher power to get by because all the power you need is within. Concept
#3: Good and evil aren't always able to be separated, and good doesn't
always win out. Concept #4: Learn to question authority.

There are several others but I think these are fairly representative of
the ideas that Rowling covers in the books. Let's face it, if Harry
Potter can turn a lamp into a mouse, why does he need a Supreme Being of
any kind?

Like others on Fiction-L, my mother let me read whatever I wanted as a
child. Occasionally, she would suggest books but she never banned me from
reading anything. I read a lot of books on horses, a lot of non-fiction,
and _Mad_ magazine. I like to think I'm fairly open-minded with a touch
of skepticism thrown in to "keep it real." If I had a question about
something I read in a book, I asked my mom about it. That questioning led
me into the library science field and mom and I _still_ discuss a lot of
subjects to this day (including politics, relationships, etc.) The
communication that books opened up for us brought us closer together. And
even though we no longer share a religion, we have great respect for each
other's beliefs.
Then again, this could just be my opinion.
_____________________________________________________________
[ Alicia Graybill* ]
[ Curator/Librarian ]
[ Jane Pope Geske Heritage Room of Nebraska Authors ]
[ [removed]@rand.lcl.lib.ne.us ]
[ "A book is still the most exciting thing to me." ]
[ --Jane Pope Geske ]
[ *All opinions are strictly my own.* ]
-------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: "Lynn K. Silence" <[removed]@imail.slcl.lib.mo.us>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 10:03 AM

I was usually a few steps ahead of my mother when it came to reading
something she didn't want me to read--by the time she thought to tell me
not to, I had already read it. Sometimes I think she was using reverse
psychology on me, because as soon as she said not to read a book, it was,
of course, my first priority. And no one had to teach me to get around her
restrictions--I once read a book at the same time she did--as soon as she
put it down and left the room, I would read as many pages as I could. I
finished first.

However, I would never tell a patron of any age how to get around the
restrictions her/his parents had set.

lks


At 07:16 PM 12/18/2000 -0000, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>From: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
>>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>>Subject: RE: Parents and Children
>>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:55:58 -0500
>>
>>The copy of Forever Amber that I read was my mother's. When it was banned
>>in Boston she got on a train from Springfield MA to New York City, walked
>>into the first bookstore she saw and bought a copy because no "bluenose in
>>Boston" was going to tell her what she could and couldn't read. I've still
>>got it.
>>
>>And your daughter was right about Amber's IQ.
>>
>>
>
>I never read the book myself, though I do recall reading that it was
>"earnestly bad." On the other hand, I'm quite sure it wasn't anywhere near
>as explicit as some of the books we see today! Am I right, ladies?
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
Lynn K. Silence Manager, Collection Development
St. Louis County Library
300 Clarkson Road Ellisville, Missouri 63011
Voice: 636-227-1138 Fax: 636-227-9632
"The librarians of today...are not fiery dragons
interposed between the people and the books."
Sir William Osler

FROM: Angela Hopkins <[removed]@yahoo.com>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 11:36 AM

Hi,

I have to reply to this...I tried to hold back, but I can't do it any
longer. Phew... There is one observation that I have made that has
really made me disagree with the "potter banners". I dont' mind that
they aren't letting their children read the books, although I do mind
if the parent is making that choice WITHOUT reading the books
themselves. Most "banners" have only a very very general idea about
the book, most info comes from the back cover or from information
that another person has given them that hasn't read the book either.
My main problem, and or, question is, have these people also banned
their child from watching "the wizard of oz" or "star wars"...etc? I
sure hope so, because if they haven't then I can't agree at all with
their choice. I honestly haven't met one person that has "banned"
the book that has actually read it and or, not let their children see
some kind of film that deals with any other secular matter.
Ok, I'm done...

Angie


=====
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

FROM: "Carl Heffington" <[removed]@lmxac.org>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 12:44 PM

does it matter if you agree or disagree?
----- Original Message -----
From: Angela Hopkins <[removed]@yahoo.com>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: The Potteroid controversy


> Hi,
>
> I have to reply to this...I tried to hold back, but I can't do it any
> longer. Phew... There is one observation that I have made that has
> really made me disagree with the "potter banners". I dont' mind that
> they aren't letting their children read the books, although I do mind
> if the parent is making that choice WITHOUT reading the books
> themselves. Most "banners" have only a very very general idea about
> the book, most info comes from the back cover or from information
> that another person has given them that hasn't read the book either.
> My main problem, and or, question is, have these people also banned
> their child from watching "the wizard of oz" or "star wars"...etc? I
> sure hope so, because if they haven't then I can't agree at all with
> their choice. I honestly haven't met one person that has "banned"
> the book that has actually read it and or, not let their children see
> some kind of film that deals with any other secular matter.
> Ok, I'm done...
>
> Angie
>
>
> =====
> Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: "Steven A. Roman" <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 2:10 PM

I'd like to address this question on three fronts.

To begin with, I'd like to relate the Bible passage that I believe is the
origin of the objection to witchcraft:

"There must never be anyone among you who makes his son or daughter pass
through the fire of sacrifice, who practices divination, who is soothsayer,
augur or sorcerer, weaver of spells, consulter of ghosts or mediums, or
necromancer. For anyone who does these things is detestable to Yahweh your
God."

--Deut. 18:10-12

As the above passage relates, any source of supernatural power not derived
from God is considered not merely suspect, but overtly evil.

Here endeth the Bible lesson.

The second part of my answer is that most objectors don't differentiate
between the literary/metaphorical use of magic and the actual practice of
magic. They don't see the magic as simply a literary part of a world
construct. If their children were watching an sf/sci-fi show, such as Star
Trek, where the "good guys" were flying around in a spacecraft and shooting
lasers at enemies, the parents aren't as likely to object. But: replace the
spacecraft with a broom or a flying carpet, replace the ray gun with a wand,
replace the pseudo-scientific technobabble with magic words, and most
objectors think "evil."

There is also the fear that their children will want to emulate the book's
characters, and thus violate Scriptural teachings. But again, there is
often no distinction drawn between a child's imaginary wish-fulfillment
through pretend and make-believe and actual worship of Satan (or pagan gods
or demons or insert-otherdimensional-nasty here) or the practice of sorcery.

Since there is no distinction between the literary/imaginary/metaphorical
use of magic and the actual practice, the Fear begins to grow, often
becoming anger and outrage.

Thus ends the preamble.

Now for an actual answer.

Most people who would object to Harry Potter would indeed throw out Tolkien,
Andersen, and our dear Brothers Grimm. In fact, the only fantasist who is
the least likely candidate for exclusion is perhaps the erudite and
delightful C.S. Lewis, due to the obvious use of Christian themes in the
Chronicles of Narnia and his status as Christian apologist.

(Perhaps, too, Andersen & the Grimms are more acceptable because they are
part of our historical Western literary heritage. Notice, however, that
many of their tales have been, for lack of a better term, "Disneyfied" for a
popular audience and have been stripped of their more shocking elements.)

Additionally, Harry Potter is also a prime target because of its popularity.
More objectors are likely to hear of Harry Potter. More opportunists are
likely to use its popularity as a springboard for their own aspirations.
One needs only to remember the televangelists' field day with Role-Playing
Games in the eighties to find support for this point.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, most object out of ignorance. It is
extremely likely that many objectors have never read the book they are
objecting to, perhaps simply because their reading tastes do not incorporate
fantasy. This means that they are subject to outside influence without any
awareness of the topic being discussed, and rely on other's "analyses" and
interpretations rather than forming their own opinions.

Do I agree with the objectors? No. Of course not. I'm just trying to
understand the objections, and deal with them in a rational and
compassionante manner. Objectors may disagree with me or they may come to
agree with me. Either way, I am only trying to open a respectful dialogue.

I hope that I have.

Thanks for listening, and as at least one colleague has expressed, these
opinions are my own.

Steven A. Roman
Addison Public Library

-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 2:37 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: The Potteroid controversy


I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
this one has?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "Jeanne Linn" <[removed]@libby.org>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 2:54 PM

I thought Steven's answer to be very erudite. Only one comment on the
"Disneyfied" remark. Many Disney movies contain occult themes. I DO agree
with the objectors personally, but as a librarian, I do NOT express my views
to readers. I may or may not decide to read these books, because as Steven
said, I don't usually read fantasy. Fairy tales, even with witches and
goblins, don't bother me, since they ARE fairy tales. Splitting hairs
perhaps, but that's how I feel. I really do try not to influence readers
with my prejudices although I know I buy more books in the areas I
personally like. I just don't know enough good authors in the other genres,
such as science fiction and fantasy. But I do try to represent all persons
interests in our collection. After all, I read all kinds of books in order
to come to my beliefs, and I got them at the local library!
Jeanne


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven A. Roman <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Cc: Kathryn Heavey <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>; Karen Dini
<[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>; Anne Parks <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>;
MaryMedjoMeZengue <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
Date: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy


>I'd like to address this question on three fronts.
>
>To begin with, I'd like to relate the Bible passage that I believe is the
>origin of the objection to witchcraft:
>
>"There must never be anyone among you who makes his son or daughter pass
>through the fire of sacrifice, who practices divination, who is soothsayer,
>augur or sorcerer, weaver of spells, consulter of ghosts or mediums, or
>necromancer. For anyone who does these things is detestable to Yahweh your
>God."
>
>--Deut. 18:10-12
>
>As the above passage relates, any source of supernatural power not derived
>from God is considered not merely suspect, but overtly evil.
>
>Here endeth the Bible lesson.
>
>The second part of my answer is that most objectors don't differentiate
>between the literary/metaphorical use of magic and the actual practice of
>magic. They don't see the magic as simply a literary part of a world
>construct. If their children were watching an sf/sci-fi show, such as Star
>Trek, where the "good guys" were flying around in a spacecraft and shooting
>lasers at enemies, the parents aren't as likely to object. But: replace
the
>spacecraft with a broom or a flying carpet, replace the ray gun with a
wand,
>replace the pseudo-scientific technobabble with magic words, and most
>objectors think "evil."
>
>There is also the fear that their children will want to emulate the book's
>characters, and thus violate Scriptural teachings. But again, there is
>often no distinction drawn between a child's imaginary wish-fulfillment
>through pretend and make-believe and actual worship of Satan (or pagan gods
>or demons or insert-otherdimensional-nasty here) or the practice of
sorcery.
>
>Since there is no distinction between the literary/imaginary/metaphorical
>use of magic and the actual practice, the Fear begins to grow, often
>becoming anger and outrage.
>
>Thus ends the preamble.
>
>Now for an actual answer.
>
>Most people who would object to Harry Potter would indeed throw out
Tolkien,
>Andersen, and our dear Brothers Grimm. In fact, the only fantasist who is
>the least likely candidate for exclusion is perhaps the erudite and
>delightful C.S. Lewis, due to the obvious use of Christian themes in the
>Chronicles of Narnia and his status as Christian apologist.
>
>(Perhaps, too, Andersen & the Grimms are more acceptable because they are
>part of our historical Western literary heritage. Notice, however, that
>many of their tales have been, for lack of a better term, "Disneyfied" for
a
>popular audience and have been stripped of their more shocking elements.)
>
>Additionally, Harry Potter is also a prime target because of its
popularity.
>More objectors are likely to hear of Harry Potter. More opportunists are
>likely to use its popularity as a springboard for their own aspirations.
>One needs only to remember the televangelists' field day with Role-Playing
>Games in the eighties to find support for this point.
>
>Finally, and perhaps most importantly, most object out of ignorance. It is
>extremely likely that many objectors have never read the book they are
>objecting to, perhaps simply because their reading tastes do not
incorporate
>fantasy. This means that they are subject to outside influence without any
>awareness of the topic being discussed, and rely on other's "analyses" and
>interpretations rather than forming their own opinions.
>
>Do I agree with the objectors? No. Of course not. I'm just trying to
>understand the objections, and deal with them in a rational and
>compassionante manner. Objectors may disagree with me or they may come to
>agree with me. Either way, I am only trying to open a respectful dialogue.
>
>I hope that I have.
>
>Thanks for listening, and as at least one colleague has expressed, these
>opinions are my own.
>
>Steven A. Roman
>Addison Public Library
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 2:37 PM
>To: Fiction_L
>Subject: The Potteroid controversy
>
>
>I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
>Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
>stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
>this one has?
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>......................................................................
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>Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: "Steven A. Roman" <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 3:18 PM

Although I find several of your points interesting, I would like to ask some
questions about your concepts stated below.

Concept #1: Death is indeed feared in the novels. Wormtongue fears death
(as well as torture & mistreatment), as does Harry himself in _The Goblet of
Fire_.

Concept #3: In conservative Christian theology and in the Bible, good indeed
does not always win out, even though good may ultimately win out.

Thank you, though for a very thoughtful consideration of the question, and
for making me think about your answers.

Steven A. Roman
Addison Public Library

-----Original Message-----
From: Alicia Graybill [[removed]@rand.lcl.lib.ne.us]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:19 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: The Potteroid controversy


Hello:
If the list can tolerate one more post about the subject, here goes.

I have just finished reading all 4 of the Potter books. I also happen to
be a practicing Wiccan. The spells are not the problem. The flying
broomsticks and the various magickal phenomena are not the problem, IMO,
for most of the parents. What _is_ the problem is some of the basic
philosophy in the books. Most conservative Christians (not all, this is
not a stereotype please) would find certain concepts in the books
objectionable. Concept #1: Death is not to be feared; it's the next great
adventure. Heaven or hell doesn't figure into it at all if this is your
take on life (it is mine). Concept #2: While you may be destined to
face some big problems, your fate is your own to decide. You need no
higher power to get by because all the power you need is within. Concept
#3: Good and evil aren't always able to be separated, and good doesn't
always win out. Concept #4: Learn to question authority.

There are several others but I think these are fairly representative of
the ideas that Rowling covers in the books. Let's face it, if Harry
Potter can turn a lamp into a mouse, why does he need a Supreme Being of
any kind?

Like others on Fiction-L, my mother let me read whatever I wanted as a
child. Occasionally, she would suggest books but she never banned me from
reading anything. I read a lot of books on horses, a lot of non-fiction,
and _Mad_ magazine. I like to think I'm fairly open-minded with a touch
of skepticism thrown in to "keep it real." If I had a question about
something I read in a book, I asked my mom about it. That questioning led
me into the library science field and mom and I _still_ discuss a lot of
subjects to this day (including politics, relationships, etc.) The
communication that books opened up for us brought us closer together. And
even though we no longer share a religion, we have great respect for each
other's beliefs.
Then again, this could just be my opinion.
_____________________________________________________________
[ Alicia Graybill* ]
[ Curator/Librarian ]
[ Jane Pope Geske Heritage Room of Nebraska Authors ]
[ [removed]@rand.lcl.lib.ne.us ]
[ "A book is still the most exciting thing to me." ]
[ --Jane Pope Geske ]
[ *All opinions are strictly my own.* ]
-------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: "Steven A. Roman" <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 3:22 PM

In fact, I know many parents that will not allow their child to watch any of
the _Star Wars_ films due to the inclusion of concepts similar to magic,
Eastern philosophy, and pantheism.
And these are often parents that have seen the films.

Still, as another colleague has already mentioned, at least the parents
taking some responsibility for their children, which is positive even if I
don't agree with the parents' decisions.

Steven A. Roman
Addison Public Library

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Hopkins [[removed]@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 11:32 AM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: The Potteroid controversy


Hi,

I have to reply to this...I tried to hold back, but I can't do it any
longer. Phew... There is one observation that I have made that has
really made me disagree with the "potter banners". I dont' mind that
they aren't letting their children read the books, although I do mind
if the parent is making that choice WITHOUT reading the books
themselves. Most "banners" have only a very very general idea about
the book, most info comes from the back cover or from information
that another person has given them that hasn't read the book either.
My main problem, and or, question is, have these people also banned
their child from watching "the wizard of oz" or "star wars"...etc? I
sure hope so, because if they haven't then I can't agree at all with
their choice. I honestly haven't met one person that has "banned"
the book that has actually read it and or, not let their children see
some kind of film that deals with any other secular matter.
Ok, I'm done...

Angie


=====
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

FROM: "Steven A. Roman" <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
REC'D: 12/19/00, 3:26 PM

For my 2 bits, I'd have to say that yes, it does matter if Ms. Hopkins
agrees or disagrees, because it demonstrates that she is considering the
topic carefully and thoughtfully.

Steven A. Roman
Addison Public Library

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Heffington [[removed]@lmxac.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 12:45 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: The Potteroid controversy


does it matter if you agree or disagree?
----- Original Message -----
From: Angela Hopkins <[removed]@yahoo.com>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: The Potteroid controversy


> Hi,
>
> I have to reply to this...I tried to hold back, but I can't do it any
> longer. Phew... There is one observation that I have made that has
> really made me disagree with the "potter banners". I dont' mind that
> they aren't letting their children read the books, although I do mind
> if the parent is making that choice WITHOUT reading the books
> themselves. Most "banners" have only a very very general idea about
> the book, most info comes from the back cover or from information
> that another person has given them that hasn't read the book either.
> My main problem, and or, question is, have these people also banned
> their child from watching "the wizard of oz" or "star wars"...etc? I
> sure hope so, because if they haven't then I can't agree at all with
> their choice. I honestly haven't met one person that has "banned"
> the book that has actually read it and or, not let their children see
> some kind of film that deals with any other secular matter.
> Ok, I'm done...
>
> Angie
>
>
> =====
> Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 8:53 AM

>From: "Kathryn Mannix" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:42:21 -0000
>
>I think it is due in large part to the belief people have that if children
>like anything in abundance there must be something wrong with it. Harry
>Potter has been so popular that people question why. I think that,
>unfortunately, if people see children liking something on such a large
>scale
>they see it as bad because "You know children these days they are
>completely
>corrupted and do not understand or have any morals." At least that is what
>I have heard people say.

It seems to me that parents with this attitude are only betraying their own
insecurities. They don't honestly believe that they have been successful in
instilling the desired values in their kids. Now, I can see being nervous
about a movie, or a videogame, or even a CD. But, as someone in the 19th
Century said, "I never yet saw a young girl [substitute child] ruined by a
book!"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 10:07 AM

>From: "Steven A. Roman" <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
>
>There is also the fear that their children will want to emulate the book's
>characters, and thus violate Scriptural teachings. But again, there is
>often no distinction drawn between a child's imaginary wish-fulfillment
>through pretend and make-believe and actual worship of Satan (or pagan gods
>or demons or insert-otherdimensional-nasty here) or the practice of
>sorcery.
>
>

As if, by the time kids get to the age where they *read* series books (eight
or nine, usually), they weren't capable of distinguishing between fact and
fiction.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "Carl Heffington" <[removed]@lmxac.org>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 1:17 PM

thank goodness parents have the rights to make these determinations. I
would imagine that most parents when they are setting boundaries, etc, hope
and pray (yes pray) that what they have said and done when have an impacet
(positive) when the children are making these later judgments
----- Original Message -----
From: christine jeffords <[removed]@hotmail.com>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy


>
>
>
> >From: "Steven A. Roman" <[removed]@addison.lib.il.us>
> >
> >There is also the fear that their children will want to emulate the
book's
> >characters, and thus violate Scriptural teachings. But again, there is
> >often no distinction drawn between a child's imaginary wish-fulfillment
> >through pretend and make-believe and actual worship of Satan (or pagan
gods
> >or demons or insert-otherdimensional-nasty here) or the practice of
> >sorcery.
> >
> >
>
> As if, by the time kids get to the age where they *read* series books
(eight
> or nine, usually), they weren't capable of distinguishing between fact and
> fiction.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 1:42 PM

Although I do not approve of forbidding books, I hope that parents who do
take the time to explain why. It is a perfect time to discuss matters of
faith and principle and to help children understand their parents' concerns.
As we all know all too well from our own experience "because I say so" is
all too often an encouragement to do the exact opposite. If a child
understands a parent's opposition as something more than contrariness,
something good can come from it. As a librarian and responsible adult, I
would certainly not encourage a child to defy its parents to read a
forbidden book. Children know how to do that without help.

.......................................................................
Kathleen Stipek, Adult Services/Interlibrary Loans, Alachua County
Library District (FMG), 401 E. University AV, Gainesville FL 32601
[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us)
352-334-3938 (v) 352-334-3948 (f)

"Non, merci."--Cyrano de Bergerac


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven A. Roman [[removed]@addison.lib.il.us]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 3:04 PM
To: Fiction_L
Cc: Kathryn Heavey; Karen Dini; Anne Parks; Mary MedjoMeZengue
Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy


I'd like to address this question on three fronts.

To begin with, I'd like to relate the Bible passage that I believe is the
origin of the objection to witchcraft:

"There must never be anyone among you who makes his son or daughter pass
through the fire of sacrifice, who practices divination, who is soothsayer,
augur or sorcerer, weaver of spells, consulter of ghosts or mediums, or
necromancer. For anyone who does these things is detestable to Yahweh your
God."

--Deut. 18:10-12

As the above passage relates, any source of supernatural power not derived
from God is considered not merely suspect, but overtly evil.

Here endeth the Bible lesson.

The second part of my answer is that most objectors don't differentiate
between the literary/metaphorical use of magic and the actual practice of
magic. They don't see the magic as simply a literary part of a world
construct. If their children were watching an sf/sci-fi show, such as Star
Trek, where the "good guys" were flying around in a spacecraft and shooting
lasers at enemies, the parents aren't as likely to object. But: replace the
spacecraft with a broom or a flying carpet, replace the ray gun with a wand,
replace the pseudo-scientific technobabble with magic words, and most
objectors think "evil."

There is also the fear that their children will want to emulate the book's
characters, and thus violate Scriptural teachings. But again, there is
often no distinction drawn between a child's imaginary wish-fulfillment
through pretend and make-believe and actual worship of Satan (or pagan gods
or demons or insert-otherdimensional-nasty here) or the practice of sorcery.

Since there is no distinction between the literary/imaginary/metaphorical
use of magic and the actual practice, the Fear begins to grow, often
becoming anger and outrage.

Thus ends the preamble.

Now for an actual answer.

Most people who would object to Harry Potter would indeed throw out Tolkien,
Andersen, and our dear Brothers Grimm. In fact, the only fantasist who is
the least likely candidate for exclusion is perhaps the erudite and
delightful C.S. Lewis, due to the obvious use of Christian themes in the
Chronicles of Narnia and his status as Christian apologist.

(Perhaps, too, Andersen & the Grimms are more acceptable because they are
part of our historical Western literary heritage. Notice, however, that
many of their tales have been, for lack of a better term, "Disneyfied" for a
popular audience and have been stripped of their more shocking elements.)

Additionally, Harry Potter is also a prime target because of its popularity.
More objectors are likely to hear of Harry Potter. More opportunists are
likely to use its popularity as a springboard for their own aspirations.
One needs only to remember the televangelists' field day with Role-Playing
Games in the eighties to find support for this point.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, most object out of ignorance. It is
extremely likely that many objectors have never read the book they are
objecting to, perhaps simply because their reading tastes do not incorporate
fantasy. This means that they are subject to outside influence without any
awareness of the topic being discussed, and rely on other's "analyses" and
interpretations rather than forming their own opinions.

Do I agree with the objectors? No. Of course not. I'm just trying to
understand the objections, and deal with them in a rational and
compassionante manner. Objectors may disagree with me or they may come to
agree with me. Either way, I am only trying to open a respectful dialogue.

I hope that I have.

Thanks for listening, and as at least one colleague has expressed, these
opinions are my own.

Steven A. Roman
Addison Public Library

-----Original Message-----
From: christine jeffords [[removed]@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 2:37 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: The Potteroid controversy


I could be wrong, but surely no other kids' book featuring magic ("The
Hobbit," Edward Eager, E. Nesbit, Andersen & Grimm, etc., etc.) has ever
stirred up such a lot of bad press from scared parents? Why do you suppose
this one has?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "Marla" <[removed]@orion.mtgr.mtlib.org>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 3:17 PM

I wasn't going to comment on this, but guess I have to.... (-;

I remember in my distant childhood my mother forbidding me to
read certain books and see certain movies (I don't remember
specific titles now) because she knew they would upset me. Of
course, some of them, I did read behind her back. And guess
what! They did upset me; I think one might have been "The
haunting of Hill House." I couldn't sleep with the light out for
weeks.

So for whatever reasons, I will have to trust the parents do know
what is best for their children. Maybe the parents just know it is
not right for their child(ren) at that stage of life....

Anyway, just had to make that observation. BYE!

Marla/Great Falls Public Library/Acquisitions
301 2nd Ave N
Great Falls MT 59401-2593
||||||||||||
Finally, brethern, whatever is true, whatever is honorable,
what ever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,
whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there
is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Phil.4:8

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 3:22 PM

>From: Kathleen Stipek <[removed]@exchange.acld.lib.fl.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy
>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:37:34 -0500
>
>Although I do not approve of forbidding books, I hope that parents who do
>take the time to explain why. It is a perfect time to discuss matters of
>faith and principle and to help children understand their parents'
>concerns.
>As we all know all too well from our own experience "because I say so" is
>all too often an encouragement to do the exact opposite. If a child
>understands a parent's opposition as something more than contrariness,
>something good can come from it. As a librarian and responsible adult, I
>would certainly not encourage a child to defy its parents to read a
>forbidden book. Children know how to do that without help.
>

Exactly, and if they want to, they will. You cannot keep a child "unspotted
from the world"--unless you lock him up in his room with no TV, no radio, no
music, no books but the Bible, no newspapers.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: Lisa Olsen <[removed]@clsn1269.cumberland.lib.nc.us>
REC'D: 12/20/00, 5:22 PM

Regardless of the motivations behind parental rules, why in the world
would you think that a book would be less influential on a young psyche
than a movie, videogame, or CD? In my experience books are one of the
best methods for conveying an idea and ideas are one of the most powerful
forces in the world. We may agree or disagree with the idea that magic is
or at least can be good but most of us will not deny Rowling conveys that
idea in a very appealing fashion.

__________________________________________________

Lisa A. Olsen

Information Services

Cumberland County Public Library & Information Center
East Regional Library
4809 Clinton Road
Fayetteville, NC 28301-8401

(910)485-2955

On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, christine jeffords wrote:

>
>
>
> >From: "Kathryn Mannix" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy
> >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:42:21 -0000
> >
>
> It seems to me that parents with this attitude are only betraying their own
> insecurities. They don't honestly believe that they have been successful in
> instilling the desired values in their kids. Now, I can see being nervous
> about a movie, or a videogame, or even a CD. But, as someone in the 19th
> Century said, "I never yet saw a young girl [substitute child] ruined by a
> book!"
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>

FROM: [removed]@aol.com
REC'D: 12/20/00, 7:45 PM

I guess I have to wade in on this one. When I was growing up, we were
allowed to read absolutely anything we wanted. We could bring home (from the
library, e.g.) any book we wanted - except for Hitler's Mein Kampf. That was
the one exception.

Binnie Syril Braunstein
romance novelist/former librarian

FROM: "christine jeffords" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/21/00, 1:12 PM

>From: Lisa Olsen <[removed]@clsn1269.cumberland.lib.nc.us>
>Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
>Subject: RE: The Potteroid controversy
>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:18:25 -0500 (EST)
>
>Regardless of the motivations behind parental rules, why in the world
>would you think that a book would be less influential on a young psyche
>than a movie, videogame, or CD?

Well, you asked...

Because a movie or a videogame is right *there*, in Living Color,
*displaying* the (presumably) objectionable content, which is something most
kids might not have the experience to imagine, and therefore supply for
themselves, when simply *reading* about it. (I would a lot rather *read
about* sex or violence than see it on a screen, personally.) And because
the CD, being *spoken (or sung) word*, is more personalized than the
book--the (presumably) objectionable content is being offered in the voice
of an *actual human being*, which gives it a certain air of "legitimacy."

Of course, a sane, normal child with a sound ethical base is not going to be
influenced to bad conduct by *any* of these things.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

FROM: "Fran Tracey" <[removed]@hotmail.com>
REC'D: 12/22/00, 6:29 AM

I'm finding this thread fascinating. I'm a librarian in the UK and although
I'm not responsible for children's books (so may be out of touch) I'm just
not aware of the Harry Potter books creating such a storm over here. I am a
bit horrified at the thought of schools (libraries?) banning books, I am
suspicious of censorship and any attempt to restrict freedom of thought and
beliefs, whatever those beliefs are. I'm especially astonished about this
occurring in the US, don't you have a constitution that protects freedom of
speech etc?? Hope this doesn't offend, I'm just intrigued.

Happy Christmas to one and all - from a 'practising' humanist!

Fran Tracey
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

FROM: Susan K Sanders <[removed]@scls.lib.wi.us>
REC'D: 12/22/00, 12:00 PM

We do have a constitution that protects freedom of speech, and also
theoritically keeps church and state separate, but the are elements in our
society who seem to want to limit these rights. It does seem rather
contradictory since we liek to call ourselves "the land of the free". I've
heard historians blame it on our Puritan forefathers, although that doesn't
really explain it, since that only refers to a small percentage of
Americans (not my ancestors).
I am often (personally, just my own opinion here, sorry if I offend) a
little apalled at what I see as our country's puritanical streak and am a
little embarrassed about what other countries must think. It doesn't just
apply to books, either. For example, I think Americans (vs. Europeans, at
least) were the only ones who really seemed to care so much about the
President Clinton/Lewinski thing. Another example is when Brandi Chastain
(a member of the U.S. women's soccer [football to the rest of the world]
team) victoriously took off her jersey, exposing her JogBra underneath,
apparently shocking some Americans. Also, makers of the recent film
version of Lolita couldn't find a U.S. distributor, so it wasn't shown in
theaters (although it's now out on video). We also don't have as much
nudity allowed on network TV as in the UK.
Anyway, there does seem to be a definite pattern.
I read recently in Bill Bryson's book _In a Sunburnt Country_ that
Australia actually banned quite a few seemingly innocuous books in the
1950s, which I wouldn't have expected. Maybe it's a phenomenon of
relatively "young" countries trying too hard to be respectable. Who knows.
Sorry if this gets a little tangiential, but I think it's interesting. I'd
be curious to hear what others outside the U.S. think.

P.S. To the person in the UK, there is another aspect to this which I've
noticed and of which you're maybe not aware. There are Americans who
belive that we really are "the best nation on earth" because it's so
ordained by God. They believe He's really on our side therefore we're
always right...we're special and it's all part of God's great plan. No
wonder the French hate us! (just joking there, no offense everybody).

At 12:26 PM 12/22/00 -0000, you wrote:
>
>
>
>I'm finding this thread fascinating. I'm a librarian in the UK and although
>I'm not responsible for children's books (so may be out of touch) I'm just
>not aware of the Harry Potter books creating such a storm over here. I am a
>bit horrified at the thought of schools (libraries?) banning books, I am
>suspicious of censorship and any attempt to restrict freedom of thought and
>beliefs, whatever those beliefs are. I'm especially astonished about this
>occurring in the US, don't you have a constitution that protects freedom of
>speech etc?? Hope this doesn't offend, I'm just intrigued.
>
>Happy Christmas to one and all - from a 'practising' humanist!
>
>Fran Tracey
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
>......................................................................
>Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
>Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>

FROM: "Laura McCaffery" <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
REC'D: 12/26/00, 10:30 AM

Censorship does go on at home. There is a vast difference between
monitoring and censoring. Discussing after reading is going to
teach a lot more than giving your own version of what you think of
materials. But whatever works for each family. I have raised two
children to adulthood and have one granddaughter and I never
censored what any of them read. Monitored? Yes, in the sense that I
was always aware of what they were reading and would freely discuss
any and all points with them. And my granddaughters reading is
strictly up to her and however her parents wish to monitor.
Fortunately, they are of my ilk. But I would not interfere if they
were not. I fear that when we claim to be protecting our
children, we are merely protecting our own position. That is only
MHO.
> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares
enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition, is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree. I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Laura Hibbets McCaffery
Readers Services
Allen County Public Library
Fort Wayne, Indiana
"All opinions are mine alone. Others are
free to agree..or disagree."
"...all things are to to be examined and called into question. There
are no limits set to thought." Edith Hamilton, THE GREEK WAY.

FROM: "Bobbie Gulley" <[removed]@inconnect.com>
REC'D: 12/26/00, 11:58 PM

I think that this discussion has some implications beyond Harry Potter and
what we did or didn't do with our kids.

What if a minor (under 18 by our state law for this purpose) requests
reference information on birth control? You know the parents because they
are in your church and you know that they would not approve. Do you give the
minor the same impartial reference service that you would extend to an
adult?

Or what if, as a person concerned with fostering positive images of females,
I forbid my children to read St. Paul or St. Thomas? (not going to happen -
just a what if), do you think "poor kid" then?

The points are
(1) do minors belong to their parents or do they have the rights to
intellectual freedom that adults enjoy ?
(2) do you act as a substitute parent if the child attempts to
exercise that freedom ? and
(3) it's easier to be impartial and not take things personally when
you're the one holding the match, not the one standing on the straw.

Bobbie Gulley (who once spent a fair amount of time wondering why she was
going to hell for reading the Three Musketeers)

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura McCaffery <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


Censorship does go on at home. There is a vast difference between
monitoring and censoring. Discussing after reading is going to
teach a lot more than giving your own version of what you think of
materials. But whatever works for each family. I have raised two
children to adulthood and have one granddaughter and I never
censored what any of them read. Monitored? Yes, in the sense that I
was always aware of what they were reading and would freely discuss
any and all points with them. And my granddaughters reading is
strictly up to her and however her parents wish to monitor.
Fortunately, they are of my ilk. But I would not interfere if they
were not. I fear that when we claim to be protecting our
children, we are merely protecting our own position. That is only
MHO.
> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares
enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition,
is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that
we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has
a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree.
I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Laura Hibbets McCaffery
Readers Services
Allen County Public Library
Fort Wayne, Indiana
"All opinions are mine alone. Others are
free to agree..or disagree."
"...all things are to to be examined and called into question. There
are no limits set to thought." Edith Hamilton, THE GREEK WAY.

FROM: Spencer Ms Martha <[removed]@usmc-mccs.org>
REC'D: 12/27/00, 11:03 AM

Are minors prohibited from having birth control information in your state?
It would seem to me that the same policy would apply here as for having
books in a library that some people object to. We don't prevent other people
from using those books because some others object to them.

Would you make other minors get permission from their parents to have
certain information?

I would follow whatever policy is in effect in my library in the same
situation.

Martha Spencer
Base Librarian
Camp Lejeune, NC

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobbie Gulley [[removed]@inconnect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:46 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


I think that this discussion has some implications beyond Harry Potter and
what we did or didn't do with our kids.

What if a minor (under 18 by our state law for this purpose) requests
reference information on birth control? You know the parents because they
are in your church and you know that they would not approve. Do you give the
minor the same impartial reference service that you would extend to an
adult?

Or what if, as a person concerned with fostering positive images of females,
I forbid my children to read St. Paul or St. Thomas? (not going to happen -
just a what if), do you think "poor kid" then?

The points are
(1) do minors belong to their parents or do they have the rights to
intellectual freedom that adults enjoy ?
(2) do you act as a substitute parent if the child attempts to
exercise that freedom ? and
(3) it's easier to be impartial and not take things personally when
you're the one holding the match, not the one standing on the straw.

Bobbie Gulley (who once spent a fair amount of time wondering why she was
going to hell for reading the Three Musketeers)

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura McCaffery <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


Censorship does go on at home. There is a vast difference between
monitoring and censoring. Discussing after reading is going to
teach a lot more than giving your own version of what you think of
materials. But whatever works for each family. I have raised two
children to adulthood and have one granddaughter and I never
censored what any of them read. Monitored? Yes, in the sense that I
was always aware of what they were reading and would freely discuss
any and all points with them. And my granddaughters reading is
strictly up to her and however her parents wish to monitor.
Fortunately, they are of my ilk. But I would not interfere if they
were not. I fear that when we claim to be protecting our
children, we are merely protecting our own position. That is only
MHO.
> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares
enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition,
is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that
we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has
a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree.
I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Laura Hibbets McCaffery
Readers Services
Allen County Public Library
Fort Wayne, Indiana
"All opinions are mine alone. Others are
free to agree..or disagree."
"...all things are to to be examined and called into question. There
are no limits set to thought." Edith Hamilton, THE GREEK WAY.

FROM: "Fae Bitney" <[removed]@bloomnet.com>
REC'D: 12/27/00, 1:09 PM

OK...enough is enough!

----- Original Message -----
From: Spencer Ms Martha <[removed]@usmc-mccs.org>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


Are minors prohibited from having birth control information in your state?
It would seem to me that the same policy would apply here as for having
books in a library that some people object to. We don't prevent other people
from using those books because some others object to them.

Would you make other minors get permission from their parents to have
certain information?

I would follow whatever policy is in effect in my library in the same
situation.

Martha Spencer
Base Librarian
Camp Lejeune, NC

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobbie Gulley [[removed]@inconnect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:46 PM
To: Fiction_L
Subject: Re: Parents and Children


I think that this discussion has some implications beyond Harry Potter and
what we did or didn't do with our kids.

What if a minor (under 18 by our state law for this purpose) requests
reference information on birth control? You know the parents because they
are in your church and you know that they would not approve. Do you give the
minor the same impartial reference service that you would extend to an
adult?

Or what if, as a person concerned with fostering positive images of females,
I forbid my children to read St. Paul or St. Thomas? (not going to happen -
just a what if), do you think "poor kid" then?

The points are
(1) do minors belong to their parents or do they have the rights to
intellectual freedom that adults enjoy ?
(2) do you act as a substitute parent if the child attempts to
exercise that freedom ? and
(3) it's easier to be impartial and not take things personally when
you're the one holding the match, not the one standing on the straw.

Bobbie Gulley (who once spent a fair amount of time wondering why she was
going to hell for reading the Three Musketeers)

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura McCaffery <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


Censorship does go on at home. There is a vast difference between
monitoring and censoring. Discussing after reading is going to
teach a lot more than giving your own version of what you think of
materials. But whatever works for each family. I have raised two
children to adulthood and have one granddaughter and I never
censored what any of them read. Monitored? Yes, in the sense that I
was always aware of what they were reading and would freely discuss
any and all points with them. And my granddaughters reading is
strictly up to her and however her parents wish to monitor.
Fortunately, they are of my ilk. But I would not interfere if they
were not. I fear that when we claim to be protecting our
children, we are merely protecting our own position. That is only
MHO.
> Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares
enough to
> monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
deems
> inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by definition,
is
> done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged that
we
> would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be here
> at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid has
a
> parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
back,
> no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
we've
> discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all of
> the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's great
> fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> reading - don't look down on them!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> To: Fiction_L
> Subject: Re: Parents and Children
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> >
> >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
> >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
> >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
> >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't agree.
I
> >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
>
> Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> house...censorship never works...
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
>


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Laura Hibbets McCaffery
Readers Services
Allen County Public Library
Fort Wayne, Indiana
"All opinions are mine alone. Others are
free to agree..or disagree."
"...all things are to to be examined and called into question. There
are no limits set to thought." Edith Hamilton, THE GREEK WAY.

FROM: "Carl Heffington" <[removed]@lmxac.org>
REC'D: 1/1/01, 4:35 PM

Most of us have no hesitation about telling our children not to play in the
streets, put their hands in the fire, etc. Books can have just as powerful
an effect.
----- Original Message -----
From: Laura McCaffery <[removed]@acpl.lib.in.us>
To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: Parents and Children


> Censorship does go on at home. There is a vast difference between
> monitoring and censoring. Discussing after reading is going to
> teach a lot more than giving your own version of what you think of
> materials. But whatever works for each family. I have raised two
> children to adulthood and have one granddaughter and I never
> censored what any of them read. Monitored? Yes, in the sense that I
> was always aware of what they were reading and would freely discuss
> any and all points with them. And my granddaughters reading is
> strictly up to her and however her parents wish to monitor.
> Fortunately, they are of my ilk. But I would not interfere if they
> were not. I fear that when we claim to be protecting our
> children, we are merely protecting our own position. That is only
> MHO.
> > Why do you say "Poor Kid?" Because she has a parent who cares
> enough to
> > monitor her children's reading and protect them from things the parent
deems
> > inappropriate? All kids should be so "poor." Censorship, by
definition, is
> > done by the government, not by the family. When groups are outraged
that we
> > would carry a certain item in the library, we tell them that if they are
> > concerned about their children's reading and viewing, they need to be
here
> > at the library with them and monitor what they are doing. So the kid
has a
> > parent who cares enough to do just that and we condemn her (behind her
back,
> > no less) for doing what we suggest! How do you know that this wasn't
> > discussed at home? My children aren't "allowed" to read Harry Potter
> > because of the witchcraft subject matter (Yes, I'm one of those!), but
we've
> > discussed the matter at home and my children are more than aware of all
of
> > the myriad of better reading material available at the library. For
> > recreation, we often discuss what they are reading/ have read. It's
great
> > fun! Please, just give parents credit for monitoring their children's
> > reading - don't look down on them!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [removed]@maillist.webrary.org
> > [[removed]@maillist.webrary.org]On Behalf Of christine jeffords
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 8:50 AM
> > To: Fiction_L
> > Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Deb Warner" <[removed]@co.durham.nc.us>
> > >Reply-To: "Fiction_L" <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > >To: Fiction_L <[removed]@maillist.webrary.org>
> > >Subject: Re: Parents and Children
> > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:43:13 -0500
> > >
> > >Mom didn't give a reson for Harry being outlawed. I had the the
impression
> > >it was one of those religious objections to books about magic and
witches.
> > >I didn't ask because I'd only get annoyed and because I respect a
parent's
> > >right to direct their child's reading, even if I personally don't
agree. I
> > >had a feeling the daughter rather wanted to read it, poor kid DEB
> >
> > Of course all the girl has to do is come into the library *without* her
> > mother, borrow the book, and read it at school or a friend's
> > house...censorship never works...
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
> >
> > ......................................................................
> > Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> > Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
> >
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Laura Hibbets McCaffery
> Readers Services
> Allen County Public Library
> Fort Wayne, Indiana
> "All opinions are mine alone. Others are
> free to agree..or disagree."
> "...all things are to to be examined and called into question. There
> are no limits set to thought." Edith Hamilton, THE GREEK WAY.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ......................................................................
> Need to subscribe, unsubscribe, search the archives?
> Everything Fiction_L: http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html
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